Chaos and Pain Discussion

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Fazc

. And there was never the assumption that 5x5 was all that was needed to get to the advanced stage. If it was, then great! But that was an oddity (like Bernardski as noted in Defying Gravity).

The progression was always from 5x5 to a more varied rep scheme which included singles, more than 3 workouts a week, varied exercises, frequent lifting and periodisation of sorts.

Good thoughts, and good thread overall.

The 5x5 is merely a vehicle. There are many vehicles that can take a trainee to the intermediate level quite rapidly but at some point a lifter will have to make adjustments.

I don't care what system is used as long as progression is consistent and the rep/set scheme is reasonable.

As Glwanabe and I have discussed, very few inexperienced lifters understand progression. Any program that defines progression is light years ahead of programs that simply provide set/rep schemes. Many 5x5s, including Rippetoe and Stronglifts, detail a progression approach and therefore do a great service for the beginner.

This structured progression does help with program popularity, simply because people are seeing results. They have a defined direction, so results come easier.

[Off Road]

I agree with what Faz wrote. When things stop working, it's time for a change. But that brings up another topic; how many people truly stall, or does it just get too hard (physically and mentally) to keep progressing?

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I agree with what Faz wrote. When things stop working, it's time for a change. But that brings up another topic; how many people truly stall, or does it just get too hard (physically and mentally) to keep progressing?

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

This structured progression does help with program popularity, simply because people are seeing results. They have a defined direction, so results come easier.

Absolutely it's a good point to make, the mental aspect is a massive factor. There has got to be a reason why one guy makes great progress quickly and another doesn't. I don't buy the genetic argument when dealing with beginner level strength and people far from their genetic potential.

Often what separates a guy who's making progress from one who isn't is more to do with their approach actually in the gym from rep to rep rather than the routine they're following.

In the long term I believe there are ebbs and flows in your training life which occur naturally. A good few months could follow a slower couple of months. Even a good few years could come before another few years of what could be deemed as a slump.

When the sense of direction fails or when the desire is overtaken by the size of the task I think it's a mental failure and progress will be slowed down.

[jwood]

Just want to jump in here and give my thoughts. I too bought the book yesterday, excellent deal for the amount of time and info put into this book. I think Jamie is a little crazy but he obviously gets results.

I used C&P the basics for about 3-4 months, right before my first PL meet and I hit awesome numbers in the meet. I did not deadlift heavy for probably 3 months and hit a 20lb PR. I think buying into the mindset of C&P really helped my lifts. Everyday I went into the gym just trying to be a badass. That helps.

I am just saying that sometimes I really think that the program does not matter as much as your mindset when you are there. You just gotta go in and crush weights!

[Off Road]

Yes. I think faster gains could be made by all if their conditioning and diet is up to the rigors and their training, and if they do not have mental barriers that limit their efforts.

[tank]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I agree with what Faz wrote. When things stop working, it's time for a change. But that brings up another topic; how many people truly stall, or does it just get too hard (physically and mentally) to keep progressing?

and how many stalls are the consequence of not micro-loading?

i'm guilty of that, i'll admit. i think when i stall 2 times on all the lifts in madcow's at a reasonably heavy weight i will probably move on to a new program rather than delve into 1 lb and .5 lb increments. this may be the wrong answer, but I believe the combined stimulus of increased weight and a new routine should push me past the sum of the potential micro-loaded attempts of the old routine.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I agree with what Faz wrote. When things stop working, it's time for a change. But that brings up another topic; how many people truly stall, or does it just get too hard (physically and mentally) to keep progressing?

Few people truly stall. I have stalled a couple times. I was working with 405 squats for 8 months and nothing worked. Same with bench. I was stuck for a couple years.

My squats really have only improved 29 pounds in 2 years.

They are finally coming around, primarily because I am doing something I have never tried before. And this "something" is brutally hard.

Bottom line...I had been unwilling to take it to another level. I was training hard, but not training HARD. I was milking old methods that once worked when gains came quickly.

[Off Road]

Originally Posted by tank

and how many stalls are the consequence of not micro-loading?

Or reducing volume. Or maybe even increasing volume. Experimenting in general.

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Bottom line...I had been unwilling to take it to another level. I was training hard, but not training HARD. I was milking old methods that once worked when gains came quickly.

I am guilty of the same. Always falling back on things you know have worked in the past. The problem is that they will lead you right back to where you were. I try different stuff to see what will work. Last time I tried Juggernaut to see if it will give me new progress. It was a miserable fail for me, so on to the next experiment.

[Off Road]

Originally Posted by Off Road

on to the next experiment.

Speaking of next experiments...

I am going to be using 5/3/1 BBB to get back to previous levels. Then I will rotate accessory lifts at the same volume as BBB to see which accessory lifts might have a better carry-over to the main lifts.

[tank]

Originally Posted by Off Road

Speaking of next experiments...

I am going to be using 5/3/1 BBB to get back to previous levels. Then I will rotate accessory lifts at the same volume as BBB to see which accessory lifts might have a better carry-over to the main lifts.

what is the BBB in 5/3/1 BBB?