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Old 11-21-2011, 11:28 AM   #111
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Cool. Smash some PRs.
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Old 11-21-2011, 07:59 PM   #112
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Thinking about a simplified variation of the program, not for me specifically, but merely as an option. This variation would focus on increased intensity throughout the 2 week heavy training period via the addition of reps. After the deload, weight would be added and the rep cycle would start again. Like this:

Day 1 - Squats 5 singles, Bench 5 singles
Day 2 - Deadlift 5 singles, OHP 5 singles
Day 3 - Squats 6 singles, Bench 6 singles
Day 4 - Deadlift 6 singles, OHP 6 singles
Day 5 - Squats 7 singles, Bench 7 singles
Day 6 - Deadlift 7 singles, OHP 7 singles
Day 7 - OFF

Day 8 - Squats 8 singles, Bench 8 singles
Day 9 - Deadlift 8 singles, OHP 8 singles
Day 10 - Squats 9 singles, Bench 9 singles
Day 11 - Deadlift 9 singles, OHP 9 singles
Day 12 - Squats 10 singles, Bench 10 singles
Day 13 - Deadlift 10 singles, OHP 10 singles
Day 14 - OFF

Deload week.

Start over with weight addition.
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:04 PM   #113
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A little late, but for the back off sets that have been mentioned a few days ago, Facz is spot on with the heavy single followed by doubles and triples. The single gets the body used to hadling heavier weight and in a way demonstrates strength. The down sets push that strength - low reps are used because they are easy to recover from and much easier to maintain form (strength is a skill, practice good reps, not shitty ones). The strength is pushed by the total volume of the down sets... quite a bit with fairly high intensity.

With that in mind, going back to that example I posted of the daily max x1, down 3x3, down 3x1, up to heavier 3x3... This concept will benefit those basing their lifts off of a daily max. Remember this is an easy-heavy lift, no pump up, no grinding - walk up to bar, lift is fast and fluid, rack. While it isn't, you can think of the daily max and the first bunch of triples as a warm up of sorts... sets a grove for the body and will allow better performance on a heavier 3x3. While not using this exact "template," Pendlay and Broz have frequently seen lifters have their doubles and triples come close to or match the weight of their daily max single as the body and mind "get with the program."

If weight is more linear and based less off of a daily max, the example above or something similiar wouldn't work as well... The top singles and initial downsets would more than likely already be much closer to the true 1RM which means the body is already pushing it in addition to the greater amounts of fatigue.

Me personally... I don't use a daily for my main (3x week) work and the down and back up has proven useless. With my single and work sets being closer to my 1rm, just to much energy... I also lift in 5's which are more depleting than 3's.

Steve for this template above, think it could work, obviously assuming intensity is worked into over a period of time. That OR a few days are pushed and the others are left as lighter days... then slowly pushed after mucho time. Progression is also simple and straight forward. Could work pretty well as long as the lifter doesn't dive in headfirst.

I'd be a little hesitant with the upper body work though. Im my experience (although brief) with daily upper pressing and just reading that of others, the shoulders just don't handle the volume well when using the same lifts. I'd replace one or two of the days with another variation... possibly one that is even lighter OR one that takes some volume off the shoulders (push press, board press, slingshot, etc.).

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Old 11-21-2011, 09:51 PM   #114
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Quote:
obviously assuming intensity is worked into over a period of time.
That's how I see it. It's certainly not something to walk into. I've run a Hepburn style 8 x 3 with 405 squats and it took some time to build into it.

Pavel's book has a similar program, but I forget the lift. The lift is performed every day, but adding a rep.

Regarding upper body work, I would not disagree that many/most don't handle it well. I have run presses 5 days in a row with weekends off, doing both an OHP and bench on both days and my shoulders actually felt better.

I don't think I could attempt frequent heavy benching without a Sling Shot, but with it I believe it to be personally viable.

Deadlifts...There are many that don't believe in frequent heavy deadlifts, so on the surface an approach like this would seem silly. But there are some folks like myself and Tom Martin who handle frequent deadlifting very well.

So my point is that with any program like this it is very lifter specific. Advanced lifters have unique needs and this example probably wouldn't serve many of them well at all.

Perhaps for bench and OHP, because progression is slower, the workouts could be trimmed in half and progression of reps take place over a 6 week period instead of a 3. 5, 6 and 7 during the first 3 weeks. 8, 9 and 10 during the next 3 weeks. Stagger OHP and bench so one block is bench intense, the next OHP intense.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:42 PM   #115
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I guess one of the important question coming from this discussion is...

In a system where the goal is overreaching and then recovery, how much is too much, and mow much is not enough?

In a standard system where there is no deload every third week, more frequent benching and deadlifting would certainly seem out of place. But in this system, how much is too little, and how much is too much?
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:19 AM   #116
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I'm leaning towards this perhaps being too much for me week-to-week. I was so trashed at the end of the last cycle I couldnt even lift a 140 k deadlift. My joints are again hurting just 3 days in. I'm debating either a 2 week cycle or lessening the intensity during the loading period and keeping it 3 weeks.

However I am still progressing, perhaps it's just time to toughen up?
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:06 AM   #117
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Quote:
I don't think I could attempt frequent heavy benching without a Sling Shot, but with it I believe it to be personally viable.
Thats more or less what I was getting at. High frequency is fine for pressing as long as the load on the shoulders is reduced. The deepest/bottom position is usually the hardest on the shoulders so a slingshot or any device or lift that reduces the load there 1-2+ days a week will be more of a benefit than a detriment. You'll always fine someone which can handle full rom pressing day in and day out, but that doesn't represent anything close to the whole.

The staggered progression on the presses can also be good, especially for the OHP. The staggard progression will also allow the lifter to push a little heavier -- OHP progression doesn't happen overnight so adding many singles per week will require a little less load on the bar.



Frequency has a knack for that Facz. With high frequency, balance is also key to keep the joints and such feeling better, at least for me... curls reduce/prevent elbow pain with pressing, ab work keeps the lower back feeling good, hamstring work keeps the knees feeling good. Shoulder discomfort is usually kept to a minimum doing a decent amount of rows/chins (obviously) but also some work with a different type of press --- I focus on overhead work and also do a lot of rowing/pull ups, but the shoulders don't feel good unless I do some type of horizontal press (DB). If the focus is on the bench... then some overhead work. This stuff is usually very light and easy to complete within a few minutes. Something like a total of 40-60 reps in under 5 minutes will do well. On a side, I use the time guideline to ensure weight isn't heavy enough to f' with recovery.

With the deads... I'm not a fan of high frequency with those. It is among the hardest lifts to recover from, they can also take away from other lower back lifts (squats). Like Steve, some can not only get away with frequent heavy deads, but will also benefit from them. For us mere mortals, if deads are to be done frequently, lighter speed work should make up the bulk of the pulls, only going pretty heavy once every week/2 weeks.

In regard to general intensities... I believe the more you want to push a higher intensity, the more you will have to rely on a daily max to determine the weight on the bar. If progression is planned, your not going to get away with high intensity every day for very long. Deloads will help lengthen the process but even so... high intensity leaves little room for error. You should have a plan when you have crappy days or building up with lighter, medium, heavier weeks can help as can splitting the week up into HLM/LMH/MLH.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:25 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Pull14 View Post
Frequency has a knack for that Facz. With high frequency, balance is also key to keep the joints and such feeling better
I'm sceptical about it being to do with an imbalance at least for me, I've just come off some 3-4 years of very consistent, balanced training. I've done imbalanced routines in the past as well and I've never had a problem with it. So I don't think a few weeks off would cause those kind of issues.

Here's what I'm thinking, taking my last Bench session as an example:

350lbs x 6 singles = 2100lbs

Now if I switched this over to 350lbs for a single, then back off 10% and do some three doubles (6 total) I'm left with:

350lbs + (315x6) = 2240lbs

Pretty much the same total tonnage, but I don't work with the 90%+ range as much and make it up with back off reps. Quite Starr-esque way of looking at workload. So what I might do is work upto a max for the day, no psych up, then back off for a few doubles with 90% of that max. Perhaps this will allow a more manageable two weeks.

As an aside, I don't particularly mind the joint pain, but it's probably not a good long-term plan.

Quote:
In regard to general intensities... I believe the more you want to push a higher intensity, the more you will have to rely on a daily max to determine the weight on the bar. If progression is planned, your not going to get away with high intensity every day for very long. Deloads will help lengthen the process but even so... high intensity leaves little room for error. You should have a plan when you have crappy days or building up with lighter, medium, heavier weeks can help as can splitting the week up into HLM/LMH/MLH.
Agreed, this is where I think the Bulgarian approach at least is self-regulating which can match the ebb and flow of training energy. We don't really have that, as we've pushed poundages up linearly and for a decent amount of volume. The C&P guys Chaos & Pain also has some sort of method for self-regulation by limiting rest periods and having light(er) exercises to choose from. Despite the deload week, with the sheer amount of training days we want to do in the two week loading period, I guess some sort of self-regulation is needed.

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Old 11-22-2011, 02:02 PM   #119
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I guess one of the important question coming from this discussion is...

In a system where the goal is overreaching and then recovery, how much is too much, and mow much is not enough?

In a standard system where there is no deload every third week, more frequent benching and deadlifting would certainly seem out of place. But in this system, how much is too little, and how much is too much?
Yep, and can I just say this has been a very good thread. Definitely one where actual discussion has taken place.

Back to to the question; my previous posts highlights something I may try at least for one 3 week cycle.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
I'm sceptical about it being to do with an imbalance at least for me, I've just come off some 3-4 years of very consistent, balanced training. I've done imbalanced routines in the past as well and I've never had a problem with it. So I don't think a few weeks off would cause those kind of issues.
I know it may not necessary be the reason for joint pain, just something I've seen other lifters mention and something that has helped me out personally (have always had joint issues even before I began lifting). But yeah... regardless, moving heavy stuff frequently will wear down the joints.

For the bench example above, I personally think that would provide much more manageable work if the singles are to much. If you like doing many singles, maybe have a 1-2 days of heavy singles and the rest work up to an "easy" max and down for doubles. With the amount of weekly training time, there just so many possibilities that can work well. EDIT: Just saw your log, looks good!

To Steve's "what's to little, whats to much" on a 2 week + 1 deload, that I believe would require some experimentation. Not only is the answer determined by the individual's work capacity but also how well the lifter handles high intensity lifts AND the true intensity of those singles.

Inline with experimentation to discover what is to much or to little, I think you'd want to find how much is to much and back down a little from there. For that you'd have to keep an eye on residual fatigue creeping into the start of the 2nd cycle. First sign would be the warm ups to the heavier singles feels like complete crap. Second would be poor performance on the heavier singles from the get-go. If a lifter can make 9 singles at say 400lbs... there shouldn't be ANY issue with the first few singles at 405. Likewise performance would drop as the rest of week 1-cycle 2 rolls out (increasing difficulty in warm up, first singles of session are even harder).

If the lifter has overstepped recovery, the next cycle could start back at 400 with fewer singles or start at 385-390 with the prescribed number of singles. Also to put this into context, this would be for non-auto-regulation: weights lifted are somewhat determined at the start and to come to

My little spin on Steve's 2+1 (2 week of singles, 1 week deload)...

Lifter does 2 - 3 weeks of high frequency with a combination of doubles, triples, and possibly a few 5's. At the end of the 2-3 week phase, the 2+1 begins. The weight used for the singles on the 2+1 would start with whatever the triples were in the final week of the build up. 2+1 would be run for several cycles until a point comes where finishing the last few singles is just BRUTAL. From there a deload and restart with a slightly heavier build up cycle.

Gets the lifter accustom to lifting at a higher intensity but in different rep ranges (builds up to the singles), but also allows him some time away from the +90% intensity range before and between cycles of heavy singles - some additional "recovery" after overstepping recovery in the final week of mucho singles. *This is for non-auto-regulation where the lifts are somewhat predetermined.

I haven't completely thought this out, so take it as a rough-rough-rougher draft or just something to line the litter box.

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