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Old 07-15-2011, 09:51 AM   #11
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Pretty much what GL said, I couldn't care less about what other people do to themselves i'm not that judgemental and neither do I care to be. However if that extends to them lying about their achievements and accomplishments by saying they did it naturally then I do have an issue with that as it has wider social implications.

In short, the moment peoples lies effect the larger community those lies must be challenged.
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:58 AM   #12
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I don't directly object to AAS, but don't use them for a couple reasons. First, its illegal to the point where I wouldn't be allowed to vote. Second, I don't need them at this point.

Its going to be harder to say no in 15 years if I'm deadlifting 600+ pounds but haven't added weight to the bar for 8+ months. I want that 800 pound raw deadlift. Is it feasible? Hell, I don't know. But I'm going to train as hard and smart as possible to get there. If I truly can't, then what?

I'm glad to have a forum with some good people on it though to give support and strength when it comes to that. And I'm glad to see people who don't blindly rage and disparage others for entertaining the idea, however fleeting.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:09 AM   #13
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BTB, you really summed up a lot of my beliefs here. I now know that I have more than a few friends who use AAS. For a long time, they didn't even tell me, because, to some, its like saying, I smoke crack. To me, its like saying, I drink beer or smoke pot. But because of dogma and stigma, I don't expect someone casually using AAS to admit it publicly, anymore than I expect anyone to talk publicly about any other private matter (how they get it on in the bedroom, etc).

The illegality of AAS is a joke to me at its inception. Why? Because our country allows tobacco products to be legally sold when we all know the depth and breadth of the damage it does to people's health.

I don't believe for a minute that AAS are illegal because they are more "dangerous" than other drugs. Closely listen to those TV ads for prescription meds, especially when they run down the possible side effects. Almost all of them say: stoke, heart attack and some even say, death. Really?

I had a great talk with my doctor about AAS and TRT. He basically believes that men should be able to use if they want and doctors should be able to prescribe and monitor more freely. But based on the way the FDA classifies AAS, many doctors shy away. I couldn't agree more. I should be able to tell my doctor I want to try Test just like I can tell him I want to try Cialis. It's my body and he is highly paid to monitor it.

The one question this thread brings to mind is--on natural sites, you can see a discussion of say, shoulders, and someone will post a picture of a pro like Yates (this happened on the other site a few weeks ago). I don't think that makes sense. I think the images posted on natural sites should be of natural people. Or else, the owners of said sites are, themselves, perpetuating unrealistic expectations.
Great thoughts MC.

When the government gets involved, things (obviously) get politicized, and certain issues/ideas become destroyed by propaganda.

Look at nutrition...The McGovern report, which recommended a low fat diet, was rejected by many scientists at that time. Regardless of what you believe on the issue, how the "low fat mantra" came to be about is a bit absurd. And now, like the video states, the government shovels money to back it's opinions.


To your point about natural sites MC...I will say this...I invest my life promoting naturals, interviewing them and profiling them. But the natural communities all but ignore this information and these lifters. It's frustrating, to say the least.

As Glwanabe and I have talked about many times, many naturals and recreational lifters are "anti steroid" until you present them with actual natural lifters and realistic natural (but impressive) standards. Then many of then turn on you, call your expectations limiting, and choose to keep their head up a dark hole pretending that they can get as big and as strong as an AAS user if they just work hard enough.

One of the biggest enemies of the natural community is the natural community. This is why I work so hard to beat the drum of natural expectations.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:09 AM   #14
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All those issues would be solved by legalizing AAS, then those that use would admit it. It's especially stupid that the military prohibits it, I can think of no better army than one of juiced up meatheads who also have guns and tanks to go **** shit up.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:18 AM   #15
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Yeah I'm with everyone else I don't care if you do it, but if you do don't lie about it and give false expectations to guys just starting out. I remember trying to explain to my friends that it doesn't matter how hard or how long you train you won't look like one of the pros.

They of course think (and probably still do) that anyone can reach those goal juice just speeds up the process.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #16
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To your point about natural sites MC...I will say this...I invest my life promoting naturals, interviewing them and profiling them. But the natural communities all but ignore this information and these lifters. It's frustrating, to say the least.

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Old 07-15-2011, 10:30 AM   #17
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All those issues would be solved by legalizing AAS, then those that use would admit it. It's especially stupid that the military prohibits it, I can think of no better army than one of juiced up meatheads who also have guns and tanks to go **** shit up.
This made me laugh

Im with everyone else, if people want to use thats up to them, their life, but dont then deny it and say your natural because that just perpetuates the nonsense that people can get as big as the pro's.

Education is the key, but unfortunately people have to WANT to be educated otherwise they wont believe anythng you tell them, whether its the truth or not. People will only ever believe what they want to believe unfortunately !!

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Old 07-15-2011, 11:25 AM   #18
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The naturals, on the other hand, don't want to be limited. When you present them with reasonable, yet impressive goals they start screaming "do not limit me." I have seen this over and over again. But despite this screaming, 99% of them never come close to these figures, size or strength, anyway.
This is especially funny, when folks shouting dont limit me are nowhere close to what you would say is their 'natural limit'.
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:59 AM   #19
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Some excellent points made in this thread. As for my 2 cents...

I also don't care if an athlete uses steroids and will hold nothing against those that do. Its a personal choice. I choose not to.

Steroids have gotten such a bad rap and are a big deal in the fitness/performance industry on account of the politicized propaganda thrown out there by politicans and advocacy groups. Reality is thrown out the window and the extreme cases are portrayed as the norm. As a high school student, every year I'd have to watch documentaries which would conclude that any type of steriod use in any amount would lead to the decay or your morals, your family, extreme rage, and ultimately massive heart failure. Look at congresses involvement in MLB. Ridiculous.

And the claim of "cheating" is also BS. You ever see a shitty athlete or shitty lifter turn to steriods? They end up being just as horrible if not a lot worse off. You have to put a lot more work in. Taking a pill or putting a syringe in your ass isn't enough to turn the tables.

My biggest issue, aside from the propaganda, is not the users or people who think steroids should be illegal, but those who are in your-face-natural. I feel as though these people are trying to justify their progress/gains. I feel its even worse given the fact that so many of these guys are simply horrible lifters; reinforcing my views that most are simply trying to justify their lifts. As other have also pointed out, some of these folks dismiss lifters who have made amazing gains because certain things are "just not possible without drugs." This sometimes extends to use supplements like protein, creatine, etc. Like mentioned above, they are their own downfall.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:08 PM   #20
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This is especially funny, when folks shouting dont limit me are nowhere close to what you would say is their 'natural limit'.
I personally don't consider a 5'10" 180 pound LBM body (weight without fat) to be limiting as I rarely (more like hardly ever, except for Doug Miller) see natural pros come close to it, but so it goes...
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