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Old 06-16-2013, 06:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by LindenGarcia18 View Post
I can tell you now that I'd never go back to eating supermarket fruit. The stuff we get tastes so much better.
Good for you, and it may well be that your non-supermarket bananas taste better - this could be for a variety of reasons, including minute genetic variations, ripening conditions, soil the nanas are grown in etc. I doubt it's nanything to do with it being organically produced. I just can't see a mechanism by which this could work.

Bear in mind that taste is influenced by so many factors, including expectation. For example, if you take one cheese and label it 'Traditionally produced vintage gourmet cheddar', price 5.99 and label another one 'Value cheddar, price 2.99', guess which one people genuinely believe tastes better?

That's why only a blind taste test is credible evidence.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:30 AM   #12
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Thats hardly the case. Anything you grow yourself is going to be better for you becasue it doesn't have all the chemicals on it that supermarket food has.




I can tell you now that I'd never go back to eating supermarket fruit. The stuff we get tastes so much better.
you assuming that everyone can grow there own food, what about the many people who live in flats with no access to there own garden or allotment.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:11 PM   #13
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But Linden, I thought you were all about facts.

Believe it or not, 'facts' aren't always the determining factor when forming my opinions.

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To unpick a number of assumptions in the argument.
Here we go....

Quote:
a) home grown food has fewer 'chemicals' on it. But what do you mean by chemicals? Food is made from chemicals. Plants are made from chemicals. Everything is made from chemicals, including all Tannhausers and LindenGarcias. If you mean chemicals produced industrially, then you've still got an issue. What's the difference between a phosphate ion absorbed from a plant from earth, manure or industrially produced fertiliser? The answer is none at all: a phosphate ion is a phosphate ion, no matter where it comes from.

b) But OK, let's say we're talking about powerful industrially produced pesticides. It's true that your allotment food is probably going to have fewer of those. However, depending on where your allotment is, you might need to balance this against heavy metal contaminants in your food. Unless you're out in the middle of the country, your food is subject to environmental pollutants from traffic etc, which are bio-accumulated in plants. My guess is that anyone who has got a town allotment is upping their intake of cadmium, lead, etc. Even if this doesn't apply to you personally, I bet it applies to a lot of 'organic food' grown in towns.

As I said before, I was referring to the industrially produced pesticides you talk of.
My allotment is in Kent, at the country side, and the other fruits and veg we grow come from our friends in the Canaries islands on their allotment. They're imported here.

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c) And even if there are potentially harmful pesticides on supermarket food, you have to consider dosage before you can declare that these are no good for you. As I pointed out in my earlier post, we're all exposed to all sorts of industrially extracted 'chemicals' every day:

fluorides in toothpaste
chlorine compounds and aluminium sulphate used to treat water
Exactly, and thats why I do my best to avoid them.

"potentially harmful"? Are you kidding?

Fluoride was used to dumb down the Jews in the concentration camps throughout world war 2, and slowly lowers the populations IQ by some every year.

That's why we also have a filter on our pipes (fluorides in the water too you know), and why I use toothpaste without fluoride in it.

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deodorants, skin cleaning products and hair products (bunging 'natural' on the label doesn't change the composition)
copper from pipes
etc, etc, etc
Yes, exactly. I use natural stuff. Deodorants, hair products, etc;.....
(And no, not the supermarket stuff, ACTUALLY natural products)




Quote:
Industrial chemicals are a fact of life. What matters is their toxicity at low doses, and what the long-term effects of these are. At the moment, there's little indication that the dosages the average person faces has got any clinical significance. There's a paranoia about substances that, in the scheme of things, probably contribute a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction to health and life-expectancy.
Well, personally I'd prefer to avoid them.

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To boldly declare that home grown food is going to be better because supermarket food has 'chemicals' on it is going well beyond the available evidence, and as such it's misleading.
...Hardly. The nutritional value in fruit and veg has gone down 70% since the 1930's. That's hardly a fact to be missed. These industrial chemicals actually have been lowing the quality of the food for years.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by leefarley View Post
you assuming that everyone can grow there own food, what about the many people who live in flats with no access to there own garden or allotment.


I didn't assume anything.

I just stated my opinions and what I do personally.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:55 PM   #15
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Bear in mind that taste is influenced by so many factors, including expectation. For example, if you take one cheese and label it 'Traditionally produced vintage gourmet cheddar', price 5.99 and label another one 'Value cheddar, price 2.99', guess which one people genuinely believe tastes better?

That's why only a blind taste test is credible evidence.
How true that is!


When they were trying to introduce margarine over butter, they deliberately put more yellow food colouring into the margarine and made sure the butter was a lard-white colour...up until that point, all the housewives asked said that butter tasted much better than margarine...once they tasted the margarine and butter that had been presented with the reverse colours that they'd expected, they chose margarine over butter and even insisted that it was butter...it had a better taste, all of a sudden.


A small change in colour was enough to trick them into thinking that margarine was butter and enough to get them to say that it tasted better than butter even though, even a few days previously, they were staunchly set against margarine as a spread.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:46 PM   #16
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Many times it is a label thing. They are not neccessarily better for you, some things are, but I think you are just paying for the name organic many times.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by LindenGarcia18 View Post
Believe it or not, 'facts' aren't always the determining factor when forming my opinions.
That's not the impression you gave on another thread. But 'm glad it's there in black and white.

Quote:
As I said before, I was referring to the industrially produced pesticides you talk of.
Where did you say this before? There's a reference to chemicals, nothing more specific.

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My allotment is in Kent, at the country side, and the other fruits and veg we grow come from our friends in the Canaries islands on their allotment. They're imported here.
Your allotment is in some traffic-free area of Kent - nice! - so less heavy-metal contamination. Just like the supermarket chains that the area also supplies. That's something for the inner-city allotment grower to consider and balance against other factors. Point is that a blanket recommendation of 'grow your own - it's heallthier' may not be true, depending on where you live.


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Exactly, and thats why I do my best to avoid them


"potentially harmful"? Are you kidding?

Fluoride was used to dumb down the Jews in the concentration camps throughout world war 2, and slowly lowers the populations IQ by some every year. .
You really believe this sort of thing, don't you? Honestly, there are so many ridiculous statements in one sentence I don't know where to start. This is all conspiracy website nonsense that you could easily challenge with a half-day of decent reading.


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Yes, exactly. I use natural stuff. Deodorants, hair products, etc;.....
(And no, not the supermarket stuff, ACTUALLY natural products)
i

You are very caught up in this natural vs artificial idea, but (a) many of the active ingredients in shampoos etc are going to be the same whether it's something produced by L'Oreal or something you make in a bucket in the garden and (b) there is nothing natural about putting substances on your skin to clean it. That's an entirely cultural practice.

To give you an example of (a), saponification is ALWAYS going to involve treating fats/oils with an alkali, there's no way around it.


Quote:
...Hardly. The nutritional value in fruit and veg has gone down 70% since the 1930's. That's hardly a fact to be missed. These industrial chemicals actually have been lowing the quality of the food for years.
But it's not a fact, is it? It's just another untrue assertion gathered off the ever-faithful internet, which spreads manure faster than any farm equipment yet invented. Another internet meme that is based on the misinterpretation of a couple of pretty old studies, iirc, and propagated through zero credibility sites like 'NaturalNews'.

Show me a recent meta-analysis that shows nutrient levels are declining across the board in food, and then find me some research that links that to the use of pesticides rather than two zillion other possible variables.

And by the way, good for you for being interested in this stuff in your teens. You have a lot of scepticism about governments and so on, but maybe you should consider applying the same viewpoint to other sources of information...like the fluoride/IQ thing for example.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:51 AM   #18
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That's not the impression you gave on another thread. But 'm glad it's there in black and white.
That was about conspiracy theories, I didn't say facts always determined my beliefs.



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Where did you say this before? There's a reference to chemicals, nothing more specific.
I should've been more specific, thats what I meant by chemicals.

It was pretty obvious though, is another human being is putting chemicals onto a plant, what does that suggest to you?



Quote:
Your allotment is in some traffic-free area of Kent - nice! - so less heavy-metal contamination. Just like the supermarket chains that the area also supplies. That's something for the inner-city allotment grower to consider and balance against other factors. Point is that a blanket recommendation of 'grow your own - it's heallthier' may not be true, depending on where you live.
Yes, thats a good point.



You really believe this sort of thing, don't you? Honestly, there are so many ridiculous statements in one sentence I don't know where to start. This is all conspiracy website nonsense that you could easily challenge with a half-day of decent reading.


Quote:
You are very caught up in this natural vs artificial idea, but (a) many of the active ingredients in shampoos etc are going to be the same whether it's something produced by L'Oreal or something you make in a bucket in the garden and (b) there is nothing natural about putting substances on your skin to clean it. That's an entirely cultural practice.
Shampoo? Casteil soap is what I use. Look it up if you like

No your right, there isn't anything natural about it. But that wasn't the point. The point was that its likely better for your hair than the commercial stuff.

Quote:

To give you an example of (a), saponification is ALWAYS going to involve treating fats/oils with an alkali, there's no way around it.
Yeah, true, but what about all the added chemicals to make your hair seem soft, or to make it smell nice afterward?
I wasn't disputing the fact that they all contain the same cleansing compounds, but theres added stuff in there that probably isn't very good for you, thats all I was saying.


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But it's not a fact, is it? It's just another untrue assertion gathered off the ever-faithful internet, which spreads manure faster than any farm equipment yet invented. Another internet meme that is based on the misinterpretation of a couple of pretty old studies, iirc, and propagated through zero credibility sites like 'NaturalNews'.

Show me a recent meta-analysis that shows nutrient levels are declining across the board in food, and then find me some research that links that to the use of pesticides rather than two zillion other possible variables.

Yeah, your right. I don't have any "proof" to show you. Theres allot of studies which state that fact, and I took it on board.
I agree, I should've done more research.

Quote:
And by the way, good for you for being interested in this stuff in your teens. You have a lot of scepticism about governments and so on, but maybe you should consider applying the same viewpoint to other sources of information...like the fluoride/IQ thing for example.

The fluoride thing is a confirmed study actually, just look it up. Isn't the fact that they used it to dumb down the Jews in the concentration camps enough to know its not good anyway through?!

I agree with what your saying though, I do need to do a little more research before I form an opinion with these things, although allot of them are proven facts.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by LindenGarcia18 View Post
The fluoride thing is a confirmed study actually, just look it up. Isn't the fact that they used it to dumb down the Jews in the concentration camps enough to know its not good anyway through?!

I agree with what your saying though, I do need to do a little more research before I form an opinion with these things, although allot of them are proven facts.
OK, I did, even though I've seen it before.

So, like many urban myths, this has been around in various forms and will continue to evolve as a story. For example:

Quote:
Claims that governments are using water fluoridation to 'dumb down' the population [78-80], help the spread of communism [81], or prepare the way for the New World Order [81,82] are used occasionally in antifluoridationist writings.
See here

Even the serious anti-fluoride guys have this to say (see here):

Quote:
"We have done our level best to discourage opponents of fluoridation from using this emotive argument," said Paul Connett, a chemist who directs the anti-fluoridation group Fluoride Action Network and recently co-authored a book called The Case Against Fluoride. "The historical evidence for this assertion is extremely weak.

If anyone should know the answer, it's got to be scholars at a Holocaust Memorial museum:

Quote:
Andy Hollinger, who handles media relations at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, tried not to laugh as we explained our fact-check.

"I can almost guarantee you that is indeed an urban myth," he said. "... That sounds like Conspiracy Theory 101."

But he humored us, putting historian Patricia Heberer on the phone. Her expertise is the German medical community, including Holocaust-era experimentation.

Most Nazi medical experiments, she said, had two themes: new drugs and treatments for common battlefield ailments, from war wounds to typhus, or the more infamous effort to underpin Nazi racial ideas, such as Josef Mengele's twin studies. None of the experimentation that she knows of involved fluoride — for mind control or for healthy teeth.

Meanwhile, in the concentration camp system, as in the ghettos, it would have been surprising if fluoride delivery was a focus — in the final few days before liberation, water lines scarcely delivered water. So, water treated just for the Jews?

"I can't see it," she said.
[ibid]

The source of the myth, according to the Politifact site, is likely to be Ian Stephens, who misrepresented a book by Christopher Bryson, who wrote a book about misuse of fluoride. But when the journalists contacted him, Bryson said:

Quote:
"I never came across any documentation or credible information showing that fluoride was used in Nazi death camps,"
If you want to see how anti-fluoridation groups operate, and why their information is often not to be trusted,take a look at this: http://www.scienceinmedicine.org/pol...idationist.pdf
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