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Old 03-13-2013, 11:58 AM   #21
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Regarding the SLDL starting from the floor. I don't teach it that way, nor do I believe it's the best way to initiate that particular lift.

I do not know the shake down of which coaches teach what. Quite frankly I don't care. I am comfortable with the way I teach the SLDL.

I will mention that I am not alone in my belief that the SLDL should start from the top.

Lyle McDonald:

Quote:
Both the RDL and SLDL start in basically identical positions: both movements start from the top with the bar held with straight arms and the torso upright.
Dorian starts at the top. The bar is away from his legs. Again not advocating the bar being away from the legs, merely stating that it is indeed the norm for that lift.


I have also seen 2 SLDL variation videos by Dave Tate where he starts at the top, and where the bar is not against his thighs. It is what it is.

I also realize that there is a difference between how the SLDL is performed in some strength circles, and is certainly different in bodybuilding circles.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #22
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWill View Post
I've been watching a lot of videos for both. While the descriptions are different. What I see people doing in the videos, well, pretty much looks the same. What am I missing?
I think we have successfully managed to form lock you?

Let me know if you need any more help on this lift. Not sure we helped you much, so I apologize.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:21 PM   #24
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Marty Gallagher on the performance of the SLDL:

Quote:
The bar stayed in contact with the leg the entire time, over the total length of the rep stroke. The hips were the hinge, the fulcrum, and this is where the real action took place. We all used a narrow-stance conventional deadlift style as per Hugh, with maybe six inches between the heelswe learned how to do the bow and arrow technique using a conventional pull stance.

The stiff leg was the number 1 assistance exercise. It worked the hell out of the hinge and thats what Cassidy wanted: to turn spinal erectors into industrial cranes. One Hugh truism which always stuck with me was, The best assistance exercises are the ones that most closely resemble the lift itself. That is profound if you ponder it.ergo, narrow and wide grip flat bench presses are superior assistance exercise to say the incline barbell or dumbbell press. Narrow stance high bar squats are a superior squat assistance exercise than leg presses. Stiff-leg deadlifts are therefore better than rows or cleans. We stiff-leg pulled the 1st rep off the floor in conventional style. Once erect we lowered in stiff-leg style until the barbell quietly and evenly touch the platform. Pull erect with bent yet stable knees. The back is held rigid; ultra-tight, every back muscle taunt to the max.
His SLDLs sound very much like RDLs. Marty though pulled from the floor. He mentions a tight back, so I am not sure how they handled reps that forces lower back rounding. I know Marty was also a fan of SLDLs off blocks.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
I like Fazc's comment about the purpose of the lifts, but more clarity could be useful here too.
You're my man, Mike.

The whole idea about differentiating the lifts based on arbitrary starting from the floor, or from the hang or whatever is completely missing the point. It's missing the forest for the tree's and it's not the way I would teach the movement at all.

The RDL serves the purpose of strengthening a strong arched back position where the hamstring and hips are the primary flexors and movers. So the type of position you would need to maintain for a strong Power Clean or a strong strict olympic-style Deadlift or pull. Very little quad involvement and the lower back is only statically strengthened, not through the range of motion.

You can think of the RDL being there to prevent the lower back from being strengthened in a flexed position. So it's the type of thing we might do to prevent someone from rounding too much on a deadlift, or perhaps the type of thing we'd do to assist a power clean and particularly the first pull into most of the cleaning movements. That is where the back is nicely arched, which includes both the hips coming through and the upper back arched.

The SLDL serves the purpose of strengthening a (relatively) rounded back position. It's the type of thing you would use to strengthen those grinding lifts like the full deadlift, lifting stones or anything where the back needs to flex under load. It mimics that position and strengthens those points, so that is why you would use it.

So of course you *could* teach whatever the hell you like, and Yates, McDonald etc can teach whatever they like as well. But as individuals actually understanding and thinking the difference between why you might use one or the other is very valuable and you don't need to understand complex biomechanics for it either, you just need an open mind. If they both essentially mould into the same thing you're missing key exercises which can greatly increase your power and that of people you train.

Finally the start positions are merely a function of flexibility and body limitations. If your entire back is solid, allowing the hams/hips to be the prime flexors and movers then you will have to start from the top as few could reach down to the floor like that.

Quote:
I assume the SLDL is mostly for lower back? And RDL is mostly for hamstring?
As you probably guessed already, it's really about strengthening body positions rather then individual muscles. The SLDL strengthens the lower backs ability to flex, the RDL strengthens the lower backs ability to maintain a solid position. Two very different purposes.

Finally, finally, finally... The following is a purely tongue-in-cheek comment so all of you take it as such.

Why don't we just get Rippetoe, McDonald and Yates (and Gallagher!) here, or better still go off to their boards to debate this. Since obviously none of us grown men here are capable of reasoning our own points without resorting to "yeah but Rippetoe said this" or "Yates did that" lol

If that offends you, then sorry just blame my quirky english humour.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #26
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Good post Faz. Do the lift you need to do, with the tech you need, for the reason you need to do it Sounds simple lol

As a pedantic aside, for me an RDL is a deadlift that starts at the top and dosn't touch the floor. It implies nothing as to how this is done
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Do the lift you need to do, with the tech you need, for the reason you need to do it Sounds simple lol
I pick things up I put them down. I do that over and over.

Good point Iain. Fazc too. It never occurred to me about strengthening a position although that seems obvious now! That is what we're doing even though I have always thought of assistance as hitting a particular joint or muscle.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
The old schoolers in these images weren't riding the bar against their legs:

Nor are they starting from the floor. . .

I've never believed that a stiff-legged deadlift needed to start from the floor, merely that they can travel to the floor or further if standing on blocks.

<edit>
Oops, BtB already covered that. Teach me to read the complete thread before hitting the respond button.

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Old 03-16-2013, 03:42 PM   #29
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Brian,

Here's another good view of RDLs. Posting to illustrate the differences. Note the tight lower back and rounded upper (at times). you can see Rob try to halt the RDL when his lower back wants to break.

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Old 03-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I think we have successfully managed to form lock you?

Let me know if you need any more help on this lift. Not sure we helped you much, so I apologize.
Yeah, I didn't mean for it to turn out this way. I did my first run today and started from the floor. I wasn't feeling it my hams as much as I do with the RDL so I do need some coaching.
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