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Old 03-06-2012, 08:22 PM   #21
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Well but back to the topic.

Does really nobody gives the principle of accomodation any support? IME its quite logic, that the body adapt to the stimulus and you have to change it to let the body adapt again.
Even Siff in Supertraining mentions it.
Steve, is your training programm exactly the same you did 10 years ago-ot to reach your personal 85-90%? Same reps,same volume, same exercises- Just backcycling?

Regarding that,somebody could to 4x6 for bench 2x the week the rest of his training life just deload and start over?

I mean if someone wants to improve his math skills he wonīt get any better in solving always the same equation. He needs to change the demands. Solve other'/more difficult equations to improve his skill.

Or a guitar player-I am one myself and played in a band in my teens. If a always exercised just one song, i didnīt think i had improved over the years.

You all have much experience under your belts, but really, no change?no periodization?

Last edited by flow; 03-06-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:35 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by flow View Post
Hi there,

I posted this thread also on Caseys Forum-but I like to hear the opinions here too, because I know we have clean users here.

As we know there are general 2 changes someone can take advantage of to enter adaption again or to periodize his training:

Quantitative Changes (reps,volume,weight etc)
Qualitative Changes (change the exercises)

In the training community both concepts are present:
Like Wendlers 531 who favours point 1 or Dante Trudels DC who favours point 2. Or westside who uses both: Exercise rotation on ME day and exercise/volume/rep rotation on RE day.

My question is, how you periodize your training. Which method has been proven for you to be superior for Hypertrophy?

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Good question.

You have to look at the principle first that makes these methods effective: progressive overload.

What is overload? Working a muscle harder than it is accustomed to working. If you bench 185 for 5 reps everyday for the rest of your life, without changes in tempo, then your body will just adapt to the level of stress placed on it through 185lbs and will have no new reason to grow.

This means you must increase something each workout in order to "overload" that muscle. You can increase the weight, volume (reps, sets) tempo, frequency, add an exercise, etc.

What is progression? Linear increments over a period of time.

This means that regardless if you're adding another exercise or adding more reps, you are progressively overloading the muscle in the case that provided enough calories are present, then you will build hypertrophy.

However, with that said, if you only add "1" exercise to your routine it's a bad thing. Why? You have to train those antagonists specifically. If you add elbow flexion, you better add elbow extension; if you add hip flexion, you better add hip extension; if you add scapula protraction, you better add scapula retraction.

Essentially, you will be adding two movements into your routine at the end of the day, but if you are going to take the approach to incorporating more exercises, then you would essentially need to add in another movement to train that specific exercises antagonists.

Same logic with using more reps though, if your method of increasing bench press overload is through adding 2 reps to your final set, then when you do your rows you'll need to add an extra two reps as well.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:33 AM   #23
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Interesting thoughts MVP. I agree that you should always train the opposing muscle groups, but I feel you can do more pulls than pushes without much harm. I also tend to work my back differently than my chest because my back likes heavier weights, forceful movements, and lower reps. My chest likes less work and slow controlled reps. But YMMV.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:46 AM   #24
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Interesting thoughts MVP. I agree that you should always train the opposing muscle groups, but I feel you can do more pulls than pushes without much harm. I also tend to work my back differently than my chest because my back likes heavier weights, forceful movements, and lower reps. My chest likes less work and slow controlled reps. But YMMV.

Yeah, you are definitely right. Same thing with hip extension and hip flexion. It's rare you see with an imbalance overly powerful hip extensors and weak hip flexors just like it's rare to see overly powerful scapula retractors and weak protractors.

I was just trying to make a point that you should always try to maintain training in the opposites category minus the exceptions .
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:18 AM   #25
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I was just trying to make a point that you should always try to maintain training in the opposites category.
Definitely important.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:17 AM   #26
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For me its very simple. I change things up a bit and experiment whenever I get bored. Progression off weight or reps is always the priority though.

Handle near max weight with better form than before is also progression, wich most people tends to forget!
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP View Post
Good question.

You have to look at the principle first that makes these methods effective: progressive overload.

What is overload? Working a muscle harder than it is accustomed to working. If you bench 185 for 5 reps everyday for the rest of your life, without changes in tempo, then your body will just adapt to the level of stress placed on it through 185lbs and will have no new reason to grow.

This means you must increase something each workout in order to "overload" that muscle. You can increase the weight, volume (reps, sets) tempo, frequency, add an exercise, etc.

What is progression? Linear increments over a period of time.

This means that regardless if you're adding another exercise or adding more reps, you are progressively overloading the muscle in the case that provided enough calories are present, then you will build hypertrophy.

However, with that said, if you only add "1" exercise to your routine it's a bad thing. Why? You have to train those antagonists specifically. If you add elbow flexion, you better add elbow extension; if you add hip flexion, you better add hip extension; if you add scapula protraction, you better add scapula retraction.

Essentially, you will be adding two movements into your routine at the end of the day, but if you are going to take the approach to incorporating more exercises, then you would essentially need to add in another movement to train that specific exercises antagonists.

Same logic with using more reps though, if your method of increasing bench press overload is through adding 2 reps to your final set, then when you do your rows you'll need to add an extra two reps as well.
'Thank you for your thoughts you brought up the important point:

Progressive Overload

But here I think it gets blurry and someone should distinguish between Progressive Overload and Progression.

So READ CAREFULLY I THINK WE GET TO THE HOT SPOT:

IF you do 3x8-this is your progression overload stimulus which leads to progression. After each session you notive you get stronger and CAN increase your reps, weight whatever.

If you stall out at some point with 3x8 and thats not because of overtraining or diet-you-as you noticed right-have to increase the demands on the body.
The principle of increasing loading demands.

So WHAT IS an increased demand for the body?

Switching from 3x8 to 5x5 is from the worload perspektive.
But so is switching to 2x20 regarding the metabolical demands.
So is to switch to an exercise the body is not used to. A new pattern the CNS has to learn and adapt to.
So is to increase ferquency.
So is to increase volume.

Zatjorski mentions the point of diminishing returns-after a point (which will vary upon lifters) an increase in work will not yield more results but will lead to a diminished effect. You canīt add exercises or sets forever.
Thats why he advocates qualitative changes.

So were is the difference between VARIETY and INCREASING DEMANDS?
In my examples all points mentioned above are increasing demands from different views.

Is a different stimulus a more demanding stimulus?

I say: YES. look at my examples.

LEts make them more specific:

-For strength switching form 3x8 to 5x5 seems logical.
-For sitze switching from 3x8 to 5x5 OR 2x20 might be an option.
-For improving bench switching from barbell bench to close grip bench might be useful to increase triceps strength in your lift. Thats weakness training but also variation. You vary the grip. You change the exercise.
-For improving "chest" switching from barbell bench to dumbbell bench might be an option for this goal.

What I want to say:
The principle of increasing loading demands and principle of variety work close together.That results in Progressive Overload. This allows you to break out of ACCOMODATION and allows again for PROGRESSION.

BUT the new demanding/different stimulus has to be carefully chosen to meet your goals.
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