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Old 10-29-2011, 08:16 AM   #1
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Fazc and I have been tossing around ideas. Starting a thread to better sift through them
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:21 AM   #2
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Some thoughts from our initial conversation, in no particular order:

1) There will be a heavy amount of loading followed by a period of unloading/deloading. For this to work the loading periods need to be severe.

2) The lifts and their variations will form the bulk of the workload, rather than assistance exercises.

3) Rep schemes will typically involved multiple sets of low reps.

4) Exercises will be limited to 2 main exercises per day.

5) Partials from various heights will be the main form of assistance.

6) Squat/Dead variations are to be done 3 times a week usually on the same day. Benching to be done 2-3 times.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post

1) There will be a heavy amount of loading followed by a period of unloading/deloading. For this to work the loading periods need to be severe.

6) Squat/Dead variations are to be done 3 times a week usually on the same day. Benching to be done 2-3 times.
These 2 points in particular have been something I have put a lot of thought into recently.

I have been considering 1-2 heavy weeks followed by a lighter week of volume work at 50-60%.

For squats and deads I have mulled the following possibilities...

3 Days Per Week (Alternating workouts)

Heavy squat, moderate deadlift, squat assistance.
Heavy deadlift, moderate squat, deadlift assistance.

Or...

Heavy squat, moderate deadlift, deadlift assistance.
Heavy deadlift, moderate squat, squat assistance.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
3 Days Per Week (Alternating workouts)

Heavy squat, moderate deadlift, squat assistance.
Heavy deadlift, moderate squat, deadlift assistance.

Or...

Heavy squat, moderate deadlift, deadlift assistance.
Heavy deadlift, moderate squat, squat assistance.
How would you feel about this type of schedule, using your Squat variations:

Monday - Squat singles, Partial Deads

Wed - Chains, Deficit Deads

Fri - Deadlifts, Partial Box SQ

So in effect just 2 exercises per day, and 48 hours to recover between sessions. However this would involve both a Squat and Dead variation each day.
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
How would you feel about this type of schedule, using your Squat variations:

Monday - Squat singles, Partial Deads

Wed - Chains, Deficit Deads

Fri - Deadlifts, Partial Box SQ

So in effect just 2 exercises per day, and 48 hours to recover between sessions. However this would involve both a Squat and Dead variation each day.
I think it's solid. The partial box squats are easiest for me so pairing them with heavier deadlifts makes sense.

Deficit deads...believe it or not I did these for 2.5 years running without knowing it. My plates are from Wal-mart and 1.5 inches short of diameter. I am thinking about something LTL and I talked about...sumo deficits.

I received very strong carryover last year from sumos to conventional. I think perhaps if I did deficits it might make sense to perform sumos.

I also feel I need to add in weight situps and side bends. These take me 5 minutes max, but when I don't perform them my squat eccentrics suffer.

Also, I seem to benefit from power shrugs, so on partial day I might add in a couple sets at the end.

Now, rows...they have helped my lockout strength. I would probably keep them a part of my pressing days, with perhaps a press, row, press, scheme. Thoughts?
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:25 AM   #6
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I picked the Deadlift variations at random, we'd each pick the 3 we think would be most helpful to us. So in as much as I like deficit deads, (especially Sumo) it's not as useful for an equipped dead. Or perhaps I'm wrong, some longer range of motion stuff should still be included, equipped or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Also, I seem to benefit from power shrugs, so on partial day I might add in a couple sets at the end.
That could definitely work, the partials could be done over a range of different heights as long as the overall volume is maintained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Now, rows...they have helped my lockout strength. I would probably keep them a part of my pressing days, with perhaps a press, row, press, scheme. Thoughts?
Yep, some upper back work needs to be in somewhere and if you only want to Press twice then that could work fine. But we don't want to risk diluting the routine with too many exercises or producing residual fatigue if you sandwich the Bent Row between two lower body days. How would you fit that in overall?

Here's what I'm thinking, again just thinking out loud, nothing definite yet:

Day 1:
CGBP (sling) - 6 triples

Day 2:
Squat (briefs/wraps) - 8 singles
Partial Sumo - 6 triples

Day 3: OFF or
Overhead Press - 6 triples
Chins - 6 x

Day 4:
Box Squat - 6 triples
Deficit Deadlifts - 6 triples

Day 5:

Bench Press (sling) - 8 singles
CG 3 Boards - 6 triples

Day 6:

Sumo Dead (brief/wraps) - 8 singles
Partial Squat - 6 triples

Day 7: OFF

Repeat for two weeks then take a week where you train maybe twice a week, at 50% on the main lifts.

Edit - Practically speaking, you could do all that in 3 days per week, if you did 3 exercises a session. We agreed that two main per day is probably the way to go.

Last edited by Fazc; 10-29-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I have been considering 1-2 heavy weeks followed by a lighter week of volume work at 50-60%.
I think that's a definite, and for the planned deload to be warranted the loading needs to be much more severe than what would normally be planned for. Hence the above post.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:22 AM   #8
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One of my big challenges is the squat. While I seem to have found a personal key to adding deadlift strength, squats still challenge me. 375 on my back feels heavy, despite having put in probably a thousand reps with it on my back the last several years.

I spent nearly 8 months doing the Hepburn 405 x 8 sets x 2 reps approach but it didn't help me at all. I have also tried frequent good mornings (5 days a week), speed work and higher frequency (as of late).

Nothing I do seems to budge my squat 1RM. My max is up only 29 pounds ion 2 years. So I am looking at new options.

1) Partial box squats. Perhaps 6 x 3 reps high box squats with 90% 1RM.
2) Heavy singles @ 90%.
3) Chains. Allow for heavier weight on my back, but making the overall rep slightly less taxing than a regular 90% rep.
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
One of my big challenges is the squat. While I seem to have found a personal key to adding deadlift strength, squats still challenge me. 375 on my back feels heavy, despite having put in probably a thousand reps with it on my back the last several years.

I spent nearly 8 months doing the Hepburn 405 x 8 sets x 2 reps approach but it didn't help me at all. I have also tried frequent good mornings (5 days a week), speed work and higher frequency (as of late).

Nothing I do seems to budge my squat 1RM. My max is up only 29 pounds ion 2 years. So I am looking at new options.

1) Partial box squats. Perhaps 6 x 3 reps high box squats with 90% 1RM.
2) Heavy singles @ 90%.
3) Chains. Allow for heavier weight on my back, but making the overall rep slightly less taxing than a regular 90% rep.
I did not get a chance to read all 40 pages of this thread, but just looking at a few, I can offer some general insight that has worked for me and others around me. You can tweak and experiment from there.

1) No matter how awesome you think your technique is....it can ALWAYS be better...I used to think mine was great but matt has something new to help me with every week. There are plenty of solid lifters and good eyes on this board that could probably help with that i am sure. Plus it helps you find what muscles are weak so you can hammer them.

2) doing heavy singles at 90% will probably keep your progression slow. At some point, if you want to see fast and big improvements you will have to go 100% + to see where you are. A few years ago I was squatting what I thought to be a respectable 565 at 145 in a single ply centurion. I got up to 700 in a year! I smoked 640 in just briefs no wraps 3 weeks ago. I max a lower body movement once a week. Westside and big iron did the same thing. philosophy was different. but they would at some point be going over 100% during training.

3) Training abs.....I think this is highly underrated in the lifting world. I do heavy ab training every training session. ESPECIALLY train obliques. They help keep you stable during the lift. I usually do 4 sets of 8-12 reps before as a warm up. and 4 after at the end. abs are like technique stuff, there can never be enough.

4) I would not overdo the deadlifting. as you get stronger in the squat you will get stronger in the deadlift. that does not mean don't do it, but vary stuff. I would pull VERY heavy (over 100%) once a month plus maybe 1-2 other times for speed/reps. pull from blocks, the rack, the floor ect. just change it up, as the deadlift takes a lot out of you and can tank you. gauge it by how our body holds up from everything else.

5) Don't just squat every week. Vary stuff. Find exercises that carry over to your squat. for example, what is your chain suspended good morning PR? or your good morning squat PR? these are exercises that i see carryover well with everyone. I have done a 465 pound chain suspended GM. 465=700+ for me. and when you do them go HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY. I know you mentioned you do these, but it doesnt seem like you max them out (correct me i I am wrong) if your squat PR is lets say 500 pounds, and you can only good morning 230 for max, but then your GM max went up to 450, you would probably squat over 500 bc you will be stonger on a squat than a good morning. (500-230 is 270. taking away a few pounds lets say carryover is 250. you would be squatting around 700) if all you do is squat, deadlift, and assistance, even if the assistance is for what you are weak at, your improvements will be slow and minimal bc you are not really brute strong anywhere else.

I will say this, based on what you post, 375 should not feel heavy to you. and 29 pound PRs should not be happening every few years. You easily have the potential to possibly do that once a month. Let me know if there is anything I can do for you or you have any questions, I am glad to help as much as I can. I can program stuff for or help you in your building of one if you would like. I LOVE seeing people hit big PRs and improve!
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:32 AM   #10
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I did not get a chance to read all 40 pages of this thread, but just looking at a few, I can offer some general insight that has worked for me and others around me. You can tweak and experiment from there.
Mike excellent points. Your experiences/opinions almost identically mirror my own!
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