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Old 07-14-2011, 08:45 PM   #1
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Default Just a random thought I was having..

Just having a few random thoughts about the industry and it's diversity of people. The biggest thing that I am truly stumped about is why 90% of the people out there make such a HUGE ordeal about being natural? I know people who are and people who arent, and both are equally respectable. To me it's like ASA vs Nascar. Two totally different classes. Am I the only one that doesnt care what people want to do? I just thought about how much ridicule I read and it's kind of rediculous. I can appreciate both sides. It's no different than the choice to run pump gas in your drag car or tune it for C16. I mean unless youre using it to infringe on rules, who really cares? Just a thought.

If this is too touchy of a subject, let me know. It's something that is a fact of the sport however, just curious on other's viewpoints.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:07 PM   #2
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Here's why I make such a big deal about it from how I view it.

I don't care if you use drugs to obtain your body. However, don't lie about it, and then claim that you didn't.

People are unwilling to believe the truth about what true natural potential is, but willingly slobber up lies from those who make false claims.

Also, the supplement industry is full of crap when it comes to it's products and what they can, or will actually deliver. Again, it is people willing to believe pure BS, for a dream of achieving something that they are working towards under false pretenses.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:17 PM   #3
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The only time I have a problem with it, is if you are not natural and compete in natural events. But apart from that, I dont have a problem with it.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:22 PM   #4
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I also have a hard time believing people who state that there is a place for steroids in this industry, while claiming to be natural themselves.

If a person has ethically given juicing the green light, then why aren't they doing it too?
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
If a person has ethically given juicing the green light, then why aren't they doing it too?
I see your point, but disagree. I believe people should be allowed to own cats if they want to foul their house up, but I won't have one myself. I think we can justify giving this green light to others without desire to partake ourselves.
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:00 PM   #6
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My main goal each day is to help lifters understand reasonable natural goals. What frustrates me the most is that this industry has gotten so out of control that very few lifters, natural or not, understand what impressive natural strength and muscle gains are anymore.

A raw 500 pound squat seems like an absolute joke when in fact it is an impressive feat for a natural. 180 pounds ripped seems like an absolute joke when in fact many natural pros don't compete at 180.

I understand that these two classes will always exist...like Marc said, ASA vs. NASCAR.

The problem is that this industry is so jammed packed with misinformation that when realistic, but impressive goals are presented, this information gets attacked from every side.

The AAS users with supra-natural numbers and weights don't want folks to know that these numbers and sizes aren't possible naturally, because it hints at their drug use. So they attack the information, saying it is limiting, incorrect, or that "potential can NEVER be measured." Many also want to believe that the impact of these drugs is minimal, or they are in denial or ashamed about how much they actually use.

The naturals, on the other hand, don't want to be limited. When you present them with reasonable, yet impressive goals they start screaming "do not limit me." I have seen this over and over again. But despite this screaming, 99% of them never come close to these figures, size or strength, anyway.

To answer your question Marc, I don't honestly care what people do. But it's not the drugs that I believe is the issue, it's the illegality. If AAS users were free to say "yes I do" then we would hope we would have more defined expectations. But they can't say this.

There are some creeps in this industry who pound the drum of natural, primarily in the realm of bodybuilding. They make me sick. If you're not natural, fine, I respect you. But when you write books and sell products as the natural god, well, don't expect me to become a member of your fan club.

My war will always be about information. I want to educate so that reasonable natural standards can be better understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon
If a person has ethically given juicing the green light, then why aren't they doing it too?
They don't want to.

I am a libertarian at heart. I don't want the government limiting every last thing we do. I want more choice, not less.

I think most of us at our core are very much the same way. We don't always understand or agree with the choices of others, but I think most of us want others to have the freedom to choose.

I don't think pot is worse than alcohol, but I don't want to smoke it. I have responsibilities and can't sit around all day listening to Pink Floyd and blowing bongs.

I believe on the danger scale, pot smoking is probably safer than eating Doritos and drinking soda every day. I give both the green light, because life is fracking tough. It's not always a cake walk. But at the end of the day blowing bongs, eating Doritos, or sticking a needle is your ass - well, I would much rather have you doing that then trying to kill me because I don't believe in your god.

It's an issue of degrees for me Abaddon. There are many things I don't personally like or approve of, but as long as a gun isn't being shoved in my face, I do not have the arrogance to believe that I know what is right or wrong for you.

I cherish freedom. I don't want someone telling me what to do, and I don't want someone telling you what to do.

It's respect for freedom of choice.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
...
I am a libertarian at heart. I don't want the government limiting every last thing we do. I want more choice, not less.

I think most of us at our core are very much the same way. We don't always understand or agree with the choices of others, but I think most of us want others to have the freedom to choose.

I don't think pot is worse than alcohol, but I don't want to smoke it. I have responsibilities and can't sit around all day listening to Pink Floyd and blowing bongs.

I believe on the danger scale, pot smoking is probably safer than eating Doritos and drinking soda every day. I give both the green light, because life is fracking tough. It's not always a cake walk. But at the end of the day blowing bongs, eating Doritos, or sticking a needle is your ass - well, I would much rather have you doing that then trying to kill me because I don't believe in your god.

It's an issue of degrees for me Abaddon. There are many things I don't personally like or approve of, but as long as a gun isn't being shoved in my face, I do not have the arrogance to believe that I know what is right or wrong for you.

I cherish freedom. I don't want someone telling me what to do, and I don't want someone telling you what to do.

It's respect for freedom of choice.
BTB, you really summed up a lot of my beliefs here. I now know that I have more than a few friends who use AAS. For a long time, they didn't even tell me, because, to some, its like saying, I smoke crack. To me, its like saying, I drink beer or smoke pot. But because of dogma and stigma, I don't expect someone casually using AAS to admit it publicly, anymore than I expect anyone to talk publicly about any other private matter (how they get it on in the bedroom, etc).

The illegality of AAS is a joke to me at its inception. Why? Because our country allows tobacco products to be legally sold when we all know the depth and breadth of the damage it does to people's health.

I don't believe for a minute that AAS are illegal because they are more "dangerous" than other drugs. Closely listen to those TV ads for prescription meds, especially when they run down the possible side effects. Almost all of them say: stoke, heart attack and some even say, death. Really?

I had a great talk with my doctor about AAS and TRT. He basically believes that men should be able to use if they want and doctors should be able to prescribe and monitor more freely. But based on the way the FDA classifies AAS, many doctors shy away. I couldn't agree more. I should be able to tell my doctor I want to try Test just like I can tell him I want to try Cialis. It's my body and he is highly paid to monitor it.

The one question this thread brings to mind is--on natural sites, you can see a discussion of say, shoulders, and someone will post a picture of a pro like Yates (this happened on the other site a few weeks ago). I don't think that makes sense. I think the images posted on natural sites should be of natural people. Or else, the owners of said sites are, themselves, perpetuating unrealistic expectations.
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:13 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by *MC* View Post
The one question this thread brings to mind is--on natural sites, you can see a discussion of say, shoulders, and someone will post a picture of a pro like Yates (this happened on the other site a few weeks ago). I don't think that makes sense. I think the images posted on natural sites should be of natural people. Or else, the owners of said sites are, themselves, perpetuating unrealistic expectations.
Excellent point. I especially hate it when the article is written BY a natural FOR other naturals, and then it's littered with pictures of drugged bodybuilders.

When I tell newer lifters that the average 5'10" male should end up around 200 lbs in lean condition with 16" arms...they get frustrated because they think they will end up looking like the pros.

Another hard pill to swallow is the strength standards for the average natural guys. I tell them that they should be able to bench 300, squat 400, and deadlift 500 after several years of hard effort. But their views are skewed by drugged lifters, guys that post numbers but use gear, and internet-inflated lift numbers.

BTW, I didn't come up with those numbers, those are the numbers from McRoberts' books. But they seem pretty realistic when compared to my own progress and the progress of other naturals that I have followed.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:48 PM   #9
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Excellent point. I especially hate it when the article is written BY a natural FOR other naturals, and then it's littered with pictures of drugged bodybuilders.

When I tell newer lifters that the average 5'10" male should end up around 200 lbs in lean condition with 16" arms...they get frustrated because they think they will end up looking like the pros.

Another hard pill to swallow is the strength standards for the average natural guys. I tell them that they should be able to bench 300, squat 400, and deadlift 500 after several years of hard effort. But their views are skewed by drugged lifters, guys that post numbers but use gear, and internet-inflated lift numbers.

BTW, I didn't come up with those numbers, those are the numbers from McRoberts' books. But they seem pretty realistic when compared to my own progress and the progress of other naturals that I have followed.

I totally disagree with your 500 pounds after years of training comment. This is indeed an underestimated statement for some people, A lot more than that is attainable. I never touched a weight in my life until January 2010, that same year in October I proceeded to pull a 575 raw natural lift in a tested event...
I do not consider myself above average by any means.

I understand that you intended that to just be a basic semi realistic offering however in some aspects i'd consider that way to conservative. I am benching and squatting over the given numbers in that one year time period as well.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by *MC* View Post
BTB, you really summed up a lot of my beliefs here. I now know that I have more than a few friends who use AAS. For a long time, they didn't even tell me, because, to some, its like saying, I smoke crack. To me, its like saying, I drink beer or smoke pot. But because of dogma and stigma, I don't expect someone casually using AAS to admit it publicly, anymore than I expect anyone to talk publicly about any other private matter (how they get it on in the bedroom, etc).

The illegality of AAS is a joke to me at its inception. Why? Because our country allows tobacco products to be legally sold when we all know the depth and breadth of the damage it does to people's health.

I don't believe for a minute that AAS are illegal because they are more "dangerous" than other drugs. Closely listen to those TV ads for prescription meds, especially when they run down the possible side effects. Almost all of them say: stoke, heart attack and some even say, death. Really?

I had a great talk with my doctor about AAS and TRT. He basically believes that men should be able to use if they want and doctors should be able to prescribe and monitor more freely. But based on the way the FDA classifies AAS, many doctors shy away. I couldn't agree more. I should be able to tell my doctor I want to try Test just like I can tell him I want to try Cialis. It's my body and he is highly paid to monitor it.

The one question this thread brings to mind is--on natural sites, you can see a discussion of say, shoulders, and someone will post a picture of a pro like Yates (this happened on the other site a few weeks ago). I don't think that makes sense. I think the images posted on natural sites should be of natural people. Or else, the owners of said sites are, themselves, perpetuating unrealistic expectations.
Great thoughts MC.

When the government gets involved, things (obviously) get politicized, and certain issues/ideas become destroyed by propaganda.

Look at nutrition...The McGovern report, which recommended a low fat diet, was rejected by many scientists at that time. Regardless of what you believe on the issue, how the "low fat mantra" came to be about is a bit absurd. And now, like the video states, the government shovels money to back it's opinions.


To your point about natural sites MC...I will say this...I invest my life promoting naturals, interviewing them and profiling them. But the natural communities all but ignore this information and these lifters. It's frustrating, to say the least.

As Glwanabe and I have talked about many times, many naturals and recreational lifters are "anti steroid" until you present them with actual natural lifters and realistic natural (but impressive) standards. Then many of then turn on you, call your expectations limiting, and choose to keep their head up a dark hole pretending that they can get as big and as strong as an AAS user if they just work hard enough.

One of the biggest enemies of the natural community is the natural community. This is why I work so hard to beat the drum of natural expectations.
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