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-   -   Fail With 545 (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3914)

DieselWeasel 08-03-2010 12:07 AM

Fail With 545
 
I tried and failed to deadlift 545, yesterday, in the gym. :o

It was so damn fuckin' close to lock-out! I've narrowed it down to these two potential weak links in the deadlift:

a) glutes (final phase of hip extension, after the hamstrings)
b) upper back (final phase of trunk extension, after the spinal erectors)
c) combination of those two

However, I doubt that the problem lies in my upper back because I work the shit out of the scapular elevators and scapular retractors 3x per week with barbell shrugs, weighted pull-ups, barbell rows, along with occasionally doing face pulls and dumbbell rows.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6924472_n.jpg

^ That is where I failed the lift.

Here is the video:


Any suggestions/recommendations/analysis/advice/help would be greatly appreciated. BodyByGamma? BendTheBar? DocColossus? Craig Pfisterer?

Someone on another message board (NOT bb.com) told me that my hip flexors might be too tight and that could be inhibiting my glutes (hip extensor) from firing. He told me that he had the same problem and gave me a stretch which I never did before, so that might help too.

BTW, as a result of this EPIC FAIL, my meet PR attempt will probably be 540-541 (they use kg plates) instead of 545.

BendtheBar 08-03-2010 06:44 AM

Great attempt Max.

I'm not as educated as many powerlifters, so take this suggestion for what it is. I notice during the ascent your hips stay locked. After lift off do you mentally think about pushing/thrusting your hips forward? It seems to me you're lifting with mostly back and the hips are left out.

IronManlet 08-03-2010 08:08 AM

Hey DW.

I noticed that you seem to pull with a rounded upper back; a technique I see a lot of other powerlifters use in order to decrease the bar ROM.

Now, far be it from me to tell you how you best pull; but, to my mind, this necessitates that your lower/mid-back will be locked out before your upper back, causing the actual strain of the lift to shift at about mid-thigh range (where you stalled). This makes it easier to pull off the ground, but much harder to lock out. What happens is that your lower back locks out before your hips/upper back, so your spine pretty much has to work in opposition to itself in order to get the weight up.

I see a lot of powerlifters fail their lifts at the lockout, and I don't really think that a ROM decrease of a few inches is worth all the trouble. When I set up to Deadlift, my form is like this guy in the video (skip to 0:40):



This makes the initial pull off the floor a bit harder, but ensures a strong lockout. Tbh, I can't imagine pulling any other way. It's usually the first few inches that are hardest for me; but once I get that sucker up a good 6 inches or so, it's mine. It shifts the focus off of your upper back and keeps it on the legs/lower back.

So what I would recommend is maybe a few test runs with a less-rounded upper back; just to see how you like it. If it doesn't feel right, then good luck with whatever you decide. If your upper back is what you want to work on, Pendlay Rows (DOH at 90 degrees) are probably best.

Good luck.

big valsalva 08-03-2010 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronManlet (Post 73386)
Hey DW.

I noticed that you seem to pull with a rounded upper back; a technique I see a lot of other powerlifters use in order to decrease the bar ROM.

Now, far be it from me to tell you how you best pull; but, to my mind, this necessitates that your lower/mid-back will be locked out before your upper back, causing the actual strain of the lift to shift at about mid-thigh range (where you stalled). This makes it easier to pull off the ground, but much harder to lock out. What happens is that your lower back locks out before your hips/upper back, so your spine pretty much has to work in opposition to itself in order to get the weight up.

I see a lot of powerlifters fail their lifts at the lockout, and I don't really think that a ROM decrease of a few inches is worth all the trouble. When I set up to Deadlift, my form is like this guy in the video (skip to 0:40):

YouTube - Deadlift.avi


This makes the initial pull off the floor a bit harder, but ensures a strong lockout. Tbh, I can't imagine pulling any other way. It's usually the first few inches that are hardest for me; but once I get that sucker up a good 6 inches or so, it's mine. It shifts the focus off of your upper back and keeps it on the legs/lower back.

So what I would recommend is maybe a few test runs with a less-rounded upper back; just to see how you like it. If it doesn't feel right, then good luck with whatever you decide. If your upper back is what you want to work on, Pendlay Rows (DOH at 90 degrees) are probably best.

Good luck.

I've been setting up like the guy at 0:40 as well. Lower butt. Back a little more erect. That way I can think of pulling BACK more so than UP. It's a subtle nuance.

Nail it DW! When's your comp?

DieselWeasel 08-03-2010 09:30 PM

BTB: Yeah, I need to make sure that I'm giving myself that cue to aggressively extend the hips.

Iron Manlet: The deadlift is not supposed to be similar to a squat. Therefore, your hips should NOT start too low. That is an inefficient way to pull. The round upper back has been working for me in the past and allowed me to successfully pull 535 @ 164.5 in my most recent meet. This technique has also tremendously benefited legendary deadlifters from the past and present, such as Peoples, Anello, and Konstantinovs, among others who make me and my 535 (or even 545) look weak as a kitten.

I think that I need to strengthen the glutes and upper back. However, I might just need to stretch the hip flexors (mainly iliopsoas), which seem to be inhibiting my glutes (hip extensor) from activating near lock-out. I mean, I have a muscular bubble-butt, so that latter issue might be the sole culprit, not a deficiency in strength.

big valsalva: My meet is on August 28th.

kman025 08-03-2010 09:37 PM

with your row numbers i cant see it being your upper back...

Bodybygamma 08-03-2010 10:46 PM

Just eat more, sleep more, think about it over and over, and attempt it in 2 weeks when your fresh and SMASH IT! Physically look at it anyway you want, its mental. If you were in another atmosphere the screams of brothers of iron would have made you lock it out.

I am currently working on a dead lift tutorial/FAQS etc.. and am gonna see if Ehubbs will help me since he is a raw 700+ puller to give it more credibility lol.

But honestly don't overthink it, just grip and rip. SFW!

Technical wise I would say keep your leg stance the same if thats where your comfortable, but push your knees out as if you were squatting to engage your legs on the bottom of the lift but let the hips come through since as you lock they will go back in position.

onetiredkris 08-04-2010 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronManlet (Post 73386)
Hey DW.

I noticed that you seem to pull with a rounded upper back; a technique I see a lot of other powerlifters use in order to decrease the bar ROM.

Now, far be it from me to tell you how you best pull; but, to my mind, this necessitates that your lower/mid-back will be locked out before your upper back, causing the actual strain of the lift to shift at about mid-thigh range (where you stalled). This makes it easier to pull off the ground, but much harder to lock out. What happens is that your lower back locks out before your hips/upper back, so your spine pretty much has to work in opposition to itself in order to get the weight up.

I see a lot of powerlifters fail their lifts at the lockout, and I don't really think that a ROM decrease of a few inches is worth all the trouble. When I set up to Deadlift, my form is like this guy in the video (skip to 0:40):

YouTube - Deadlift.avi


This makes the initial pull off the floor a bit harder, but ensures a strong lockout. Tbh, I can't imagine pulling any other way. It's usually the first few inches that are hardest for me; but once I get that sucker up a good 6 inches or so, it's mine. It shifts the focus off of your upper back and keeps it on the legs/lower back.

So what I would recommend is maybe a few test runs with a less-rounded upper back; just to see how you like it. If it doesn't feel right, then good luck with whatever you decide. If your upper back is what you want to work on, Pendlay Rows (DOH at 90 degrees) are probably best.

Good luck.

im a little more concerned with whats going on at the 1:02 mark
:march: giggity :march:

that vid is kick ass dw, your deadlifts are inspiring as hell. (hit or miss)!!!!:rockon:

Craig Pfisterer 08-04-2010 09:04 AM

I deadlift the same style and lockout is quite a bear at times. Big benefits being decreased distance and speed off the floor. Granted I never really peak a lift doing strongman, you do have 24 days to work with. Some things that help me are mid shin rack pulls with lots of band tension (cutting back on them now). I started out with abou 200lbs of band tension but now use 315lbs of tension. This hits the glutes and upperback is a lift specific way. You may do heavy rows and shrugs to hit the upperback but they aren't hitting that area the way they are stressed with the rounded back pulling stlye. As for getting the hips through at the top (notice how the legs lock and then the glutes lock) some things that have been helping me with that is wide sumo stifflegged deadlifts and wide stance box squats (both heavy and speed with bands). Also helps having some yelling cues to you like HIPS!. Internally yelling that if you catch yourself sometimes helps me correct mid lift.

RickB 08-04-2010 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetiredkris (Post 73563)
im a little more concerned with whats going on at the 1:02 mark
:march: giggity :march:

that vid is kick ass dw, your deadlifts are inspiring as hell. (hit or miss)!!!!:rockon:

No doubt! I was all serious about the starting form and then I was giggity too @ 1:02! :rockon:


But yeah DW, you are a machine brother!


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