When is it time to move on?

[tank]

that looks good. i'm collecting clarifying questions on specifics, but while I am, is the 4 way split referring to the program you've designed for kuyt and others? if not, what are your thoughts on my having a go at that program?

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by tank

that looks good. i'm collecting clarifying questions on specifics, but while I am, is the 4 way split referring to the program you've designed for kuyt and others? if not, what are your thoughts on my having a go at that program?

Yep that's right.

I like it a lot, obviously. It was something I did back in the day which lead to a lot of genuine gains for me and others have experienced similar results since then. It seems the guys who are using it now are also experiencing good gains.

Experience from myself and others certainly shows it works well in it's current form. That's not to say I haven't thought of variations that I might want to try on other people.

[tank]

so until when should I train in the above suggested format, and what defines that time?

[jasonjduke]

Originally Posted by tank

I'm working through intermediate levels now using Madcow's 5x5 Intermediate program, and having read several books concerning trainees' phases of advancement and following the training of many lifters on MAB I find myself wanting the opinions of you all about indicators a lifter should move forward in his training.

Off the top of my head, I'll share what I think I know to be true and how it applies.

1) Goals are established
2) Program is established using simplest method of progression applicable to lifter's adaptation (level of advancement)
3) If measurable progress toward goals is being made, make no change
4) If measurable progress is not being made, re-evaluate training, diet, rest
5) If regression is occuring, evaluate diet, rest, and possibility of over-training


My problem lies with step 3, I guess. If a lifter is making measurable progress, it is not necessarily the best progress that can be reasonably (naturally) made during this length of time. Depending on the goals of the lifter, this progress may or may not be adequate/satisfying. Personally, if I'm not making the best progress possible in the shortest amount of time, I am literally wasting time and am unsatisfied.

I remember being told awhile ago, before reading much on what defined the advancement of a lifter, that there were certain weights-per-lift that indicated strength level and a need to move on. It was something like bench 1.5 times bodyweight, squat 2 times bodyweight, and deadlift 2.5 times bodyweight. Is this type of consideration useless? Can it apply to this timeline or dictate transition?

If a program does not inflict enough stress to require a deload, does the program's efficiency become questionable?

Originally Posted by tank

I feel like 12 weeks on the program was a fair shake and that changing it up wouldn't halt progress. Mentally, I think a change would be refreshing. After these next 2 weeks end, I'll be taking mid-tour leave, so returning from leave, I think, would be a great time to start something new.

Now the question is, what to do?

EDIT: To prevent tailoring this thread to me specifically, feel free to respond/start this discussion in my log.

Please consider this tank. From what you say this is what I get.

It appears your program is working great and your body is growing. Because one program works does not mean another won't...maybe another program will work better!

I don't think your program is assisting growth mentally and emotionally. I have a personal example I will use as an explanation. I had trained my squats on 5x5 for 4-5 months making it all the way up to 365x6 as a 5th set - I was going for 2x bodyweight - thee almighty 405. I was making excellent progress and my body was growing and I was going to make it. But something I felt was missing. It was like it was too easy and felt like it became simply work. My growth and gains seemed like routine work, but I stopped growing in passion and experience. I didn't want it if it was so easy at this point. I wanted to know more and try different things. I wanted to be excited to go to the gym and walk back into the power rack.

So here is what I did. I "deloaded," if one would all it that, and marched into the gym, stepped into the power rack and proceeded to do 3 sets of 12 reps with 275 pounds. Brutallity compared to 5's. Beat my ass down, but it raised my heart for training. I felt a fury enrage within me at attemping that challenge. The barbell became a source of battle and fight an enemy that ignited a fear within me. My training felt "alive" again.

The challenge toughened me beyond what I could imagine. I was breathing hard and my legs were wobbly the next couple days. "Argh, give me more of that" I thought. It was as if doing these squats was like stoking a fire that has not since faded in the slightest. I went to 3x12x315 a couple months later. It was a life changing event for me. My mind grew 10 times tougher that day and has since proven to be an asset far beyond my training.

Did I get bigger? Nope. Did I lift heavier weights? Nope

What I did do was toughen my mind and stoke a deeper passion for training. Can't see these on a bar or in a bumpy muscle, but I believe the primary indicator to "move on" is - does it toughen your mind and does it stoke your passion regardless of everything else. Maybe you can't measure it with pounds or numbers, but you can sure as hell feel it. Without these we are simply nothing to the barbell...

What to do? Whatever scares the shit out of you. Conquer this and it doesn't matter how much weight is on the barbell.

[tank]

awesome post jason. thanks for sharing your experience. I know what you mean, and a change for the sake of rekindled passion is just as important as meeting goals. if you aren't happy working toward your goal, then you aren't enjoying the journey, and the goal is going to be a disappointing dead end.