Chaos and Pain Training Discussion

[TitanWIP]

I've been reading the C&P logs on the forum, and I read the C and P blog. I wanted to get a discussion going on the Chaos and Pain training style. I've seen a thread over at Wannebebig [/URL]where some advanced powerlifters dismissed C and P. I don't want this to turn into a raging f**k them type of thread. I just want to ask 2 simple questions:

1) Do you believe Chaos and Pain is for beginners and intermediates? Why or why not? At what point should Chaos and Pain be considered as a training style?

2) What are the cons to this style? Also, why do you believe some advanced powerlifters dismiss it?

Let's please keep this discussion civil. I am not for or against Chaos and Pain. I think a healthy discussion on the topic would benefit all.

Here are some of the comments from WBB. I post them so we can address some of the points they bring up.

Looks like fun. But it also looks like... Useless.

Lots of bravado and such, but I don't know how applicable it is to everyone. My joints would be screwed and I would likely be injured if I tried to train like that. Personally, there are a bunch of other programs I would suggest before this one, but if you want to try it go ahead.

Just like any program, it will work for some.

This is not a program for a beginner or an early intermediate. Read: "Natural lifter".

No thanks.

I read the program, and it is just that. Chaos and Pain. Has no order rhyme or reason, and my joint hurt just reading it. so ill second HB and say no thanks

As said already above the exercises seem rather jumbled and thrown together but here is some more specific criticism.

"One can build their capacity for work to whatever level they so desire, provided they're willing to invest enough time and effort."

This is demonstrably false. Yes you can immensely improve your capacity for work if you go about it the right way...but there is a limit for everyone and for some it's a lot sooner than others.

"Sets of 10-12 are useless..." Again false. They work and have worked well for many people. Just as higher reps may also work for some and lower reps for others.


"85% of 1 rep max on everything". He does add a caveat that if you are squatting 3 times a week the middle one should be light, but even with the caveat, this is a good way to injure yourself. It seems like a mixture of Bill Starr, Dogcrapp, Bulgarian powerlifting and some high rep-work thrown in altogether.

"Minimum of five days a week" (for training).

This is fine if you can handle it, but it needs to be properly designed (for example you shouldn't have four upper body days and one lower body day).

On the sample program he gave below, shoulders are being worked six days a week, not to mention the rest of upper body.
One or (at the most two) days of rest. Maybe if you are a highly advanced lifter you can get away with this stuff.
Six upper body days and only 3 lower body days (I don't count calf raises as a lower body day if they are the only lower body exercise done.)

Conclusion. It may work for him for now, but that doesn't mean it will work for others. I wouldn't do this nor recommend it.

yeah wtf.... 85% of your 1RM for everything?? i guarantee he is going to kill himself not warming up one day.

[Bodybygamma]

Here is my 2cents in the matter. Powerlifters, especially GEARED powerlifters who only want to do focus on the big 3 lifts only would of course find C & P to be useless. They only want to make there lifts go up. Good chance 90% of them can't even clean more then 135lbs off the ground and I am willing to be the same number can't even overhead press half of what they bench raw.

I personally like C&P ideas for a beginning Strength training lifter. Beginners need to learn pain and build a threshold. They need to max out more and build a foundation. They don't have injuries from years of training to slow them down, beginners need to learn the difference between muscle growth gains, and joint pains and muscle tears. It needs some tweaking but as your progress and learn your body it should be but its principal guidelines are the same. Pick some exercises and do damage! It is my belief that if you want to be strong you learn the hard way, and get stronger and grow from it. If you don't know what your doing, find someone strong to teach you, or strive for basics. I say strength trainer, because I believe everyone should build a foundation before they try to limit maximal weights. Before you learn how to clean, you must learn how to pick the bar up, how to balance it stabilize it etc.

I do not tolerate favoritism in strength,I strive to have a strong everything! I absolutely despise single disciplined lifters,unless they have injuries limiting them, other than that there is no reason why strongman and powerlifting will never reach the Olympics and my Olympic lifting will never get the credit it deserves, because you have all these strong people afraid to agree on something the rest of the world would classify them all as anyway. However I have beef with Olympic lifters who strive so much on technique they bash strength in its rawest form, and to them I say DO THAT WITH OUT YOUR FANCY OLY SHOES AND WHIPPY BAR! (It really makes a big difference lol)

[Bodybygamma]

Originally Posted by Bodybygamma

Here is my 2cents in the matter. Powerlifters, especially GEARED powerlifters who only want to do focus on the big 3 lifts only would of course find C & P to be useless. They only want to make there lifts go up. Good chance 90% of them can't even clean more then 135lbs off the ground and I am willing to be the same number can't even overhead press half of what they bench raw.

I personally like C&P ideas for a beginning Strength training lifter. Beginners need to learn pain and build a threshold. They need to max out more and build a foundation. They don't have injuries from years of training to slow them down, beginners need to learn the difference between muscle growth gains, and joint pains and muscle tears. It needs some tweaking but as your progress and learn your body it should be but its principal guidelines are the same. Pick some exercises and do damage! It is my belief that if you want to be strong you learn the hard way, and get stronger and grow from it. If you don't know what your doing, find someone strong to teach you, or strive for basics. I say strength trainer, because I believe everyone should build a foundation before they try to limit maximal weights. Before you learn how to clean, you must learn how to pick the bar up, how to balance it stabilize it etc.

I do not tolerate favoritism in strength,I strive to have a strong everything! I absolutely despise single disciplined lifters,unless they have injuries limiting them, other than that there is no reason why strongman and powerlifting will never reach the Olympics and my Olympic lifting will never get the credit it deserves, because you have all these strong people afraid to agree on something the rest of the world would classify them all as anyway. However I have beef with Olympic lifters who strive so much on technique they bash strength in its rawest form, and to them I say DO THAT WITH OUT YOUR FANCY OLY SHOES AND WHIPPY BAR! (It really makes a big difference lol)

BTW I post at wanna be big, lots of strong guys there who I know and some who I have the up most respect for, but there are also lots of single minded guys there as well. I rant because I can't stand when people place limitations on themselves and then bitch and moan. I try to be civil but their reasoning behind it is out of fear,it annoys me.

There are always risks involved in training, maybe the workout is too intense for most, that is its edge tho. All training styles should be viewed as mere guidelines, since nothing is written in stone.Ed coans deadlifting training is ridiculous yet effective, yet it is not bashed as such. And opinions are like assholes, everyone has them.

[ChAoSandPAIN]

Come on man, it's a ****ing lovefest over there. They're worshipping at my feet! Hahaha.

Congrats, by the way. I saw somewhere you crushed a meet recently.

As for how applicable it is to powerlifting, I think it's eminently useful. I'll be proving CnP's efficacy for powerlifting at some point this year- I train at Jeff Green's gym, and he's a chair for a bunch of federations, in addition to the NPC, so he'll let me know when regional meets are happening, and I might even take a couple of days off before the meet and rest up... then again, I might just treat it like a training day and show up with no belt and no wraps to be a total asshole, haha. Either way, I'll probably enter as a geared lifter and compete raw.

[ChAoSandPAIN]

By the way, feel free to bash the **** out of me, the training methodology, or whatever else you see fit. I enjoy a little strife.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by ChAoSandPAIN

By the way, feel free to bash the **** out of me, the training methodology, or whatever else you see fit. I enjoy a little strife.

Well, then...since you asked!

Just joking.

My 2 cents is this...I read that thread over at Wannabebig. I don't think most of those guys took a serious look at exactly what was going on with C&P. Sure, lifting heavy things is dangerous. With that said, I've never had a lifting related injury other then tendinitis in my life.

We all have to lift within our limits. I have spotty shoulders from my years of playing baseball (or doing 12 ounce curls - take your pick). If I do too many heavy sets of high box squats, I really strain the crap out of my shoulders and biceps. So I don't train like that.

But I have trained with board presses and heavy bench partials, and they give me no grief.

Every time I see C&P training I'm reminded of Doug Hepburn. Doug was a multiple set, low rep, heavy weight guy. I think he turned out ok.

Is C&P for everyone? No. But we all can learn from Jamie's thinking...and that, more then anything...I find invaluable in this day and age of everyone labeling themselves as a hardgainer after 3 weeks of training.

[kman025]

make sure to take a camera with you to the comp C&P.

[onetiredkris]

im multi-forum-challenged so can we get a post of the training style so others could read and give some input???

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by onetiredkris

im multi-forum-challenged so can we get a post of the training style so others could read and give some input???

Jwood had a chart posted somewhere on this site...let me see if I can dig it out.

[BendtheBar]