Chaos and Pain Training Discussion

[kman025]

theres the template and also this: ChAoS & PAIN: ChAoS and PAIN - The Basics that jwood and i are following

[BendtheBar]

Here ya go...

To those people- there is absolutely no clearly defined method by which a person can predict their capacity for training, nor is there a set rule for what will always constitute overtraining. One can build their capacity for work to whatever level they so desire, provided they're willing to invest enough time and effort. As the Barbarian Brothers so succinctly stated, "there's no such thing as overtraining, just undereating and undersleeping."

The key tenet of Chaos and Pain is to train as much as you want, but to always be doing something useful. Machine work is rarely useful. Cable work is likewise rarely useful. Sets of 10 to 12 are useless to a degree that I find myself at a loss to articulate- the intensity is too low to produce results in anyone but genetic freaks, and fast twitch muscle fibers rarely get fatigued enough to stimulate growth with that rep scheme, unless you're using massive amounts of forced reps, drop sets, and other ridiculous intensity-raising methods. 5x5 will produce mediocre results for most, but that's inherent in the philosophy, as it's a low risk, low reward sort of enterprise.

On Chaos and Pain, you're going to train a MINIMUM of 5 days a week, if you're going balls out. I've never tried to pack the volume of work I do into less, really. I've had backoff weeks because my legs were cramping like crazy, which reduced my training load for a week, but this program is all about constantly busting your ass.

The exercises:
Squat
Front Squat
Clean and Press (and all of its variations... power cleans, push press, fat bar clean and press, log clean and press, dumbbell clean and press, reverse grip/fast curl and press)
Snatches (one and two arm)
Push Presses
Push Jerks (from the back)
Military presses (one and two arm)
Deadlifts (one arm, two arm, trap bar, etc)
Bench press (close grip, reverse grip, and regular flat bench)
Pullups (weighted and unweighted)
Dips (weighted and unweighted)
Shrugs
High Pulls
any other heavy ass exercise you want. Stones, steel suitcases, farmers walks, throwing weights for height or distance, etc. The key is that they're heavy, not conducted on a padded seat or bench (with the exception of bench press), and require you to be a ****ing man while doing it.

The basics: I typically combine one push with one pull and one squat three times per week. The exercises are basically a grab bag, from which you can grab any of the above. On those three days, you will shoot for 15-30 total reps, depending on your rep scheme. Doing triples? go with 10x3. Doubles? I rarely do them, but shoot for 10-15 sets. Singles? They're my bread and butter, and I'll do anywhere from 15 to 30 of them, depending on the workout. I love them.

The key to getting ripped and strong on this program is to use AT LEAST 85% of your 1 rep max (1RM) on everything, and I like to stay in the 87.5%-100% range. That means HEAVY. Always. Well, almost always. If you're going to squat 3 times a week, make the midweek squat workout a light one. i like to load 135 or 225 on the bar and squat for time for a couple of sets. I just put a song on my ipod that's 2:30 or 3:00 for 135, or 1:30-2:00 for 225 and squat pretty much nonstop. If you start dying, just stand there under the weight.

Thus, one of the big three workouts might look like this:
Back Squat 10x3
Push Jerks from behind the neck 15x1
Weighted Pullups 5x4 ( I often end up doing slightly higher reps on pullups, since it's a pain to load the belt with small plates once you've got a couple of 45s on there.

If you choose to do clean and press, that counts as both a pull and a press. Thus, you can just kill yourself at that exercise, or you can do that and another exercise if you want.

So, what to do on the off days? I like busting out the ab wheel and one of the straps people use for hanging leg raises to work neck off a high cable, and doing high rep arms with a fat bar, and calves. I also quite enjoy doing the Bear, the Super Bear, or playing uncle by myself, or with a lifting partner.

That **** explained:
The Bear- it's a clean and press complex. I'd start with 95lbs and work my way up, were I you guys. It's a clean from the floor into a front squat, to an overhead press, to a back squat, to another overhead press, to a front squat, and then cleaning the bar back down to the floor. That's one rep. I like doing those for 5x5, or in an uncle format, which I'll address in a second.

The Super Bear- A buddy of mine and I decided that the Bear didn't suck enough, so we added two more squats- overhead squats, at the top of both overhead presses. Thus, it's clean to front squat, overhead press to overhead squat, then drop the bar on your back and back squat it, overhead press to overhead squat, then drop the bar on your collarbones and front squat, then back to the floor. Fun, right? I think we might have had a best of 5x5 with that using 115, and I was sore for a week.

Uncle- I've explained this. Pay attention, stupid.

Want a weekly program? Well, that would defy the very definition of the name. It's supposed to be chaotic. There's no need for periodization in my routine, since it's a constant adaptation phase. If you want an example of what a week might look like, here you go. just don't do this every week.

Monday:
Front Squat 12x1x455lbs (90% 1RM)
Shrugs 12x2x765lbs
Close grip BP 10x3x315
Note: DO NOT OVERHEAD PRESS ON THE SAME DAY YOU SHRUG. YOUR TRAPS CRAMP UP LIKE THEY WANT YOU DEAD.

Tuesday:
Clean and press, 30 reps with 135lbs as fast as possible
Ab wheel 5x10

Wednesday
Back Squat for time. 2:30x3x135lbs
Weighted Pullups 7x4x100lbs
Push Jerks 5x3x255, 3x1x275, 2x1x285

Thursday
Donkey Calf Raise 10x10xthe stack
Ab Wheel 3x5 standing
Unweighted pullups 100 reps

Friday
Back squat 15x1x565
Bent over rows 6x6x315
Military press 12x2x200

Saturday
Arms, with the fat bar, giant-setting reverse curls with overhead tricep extensions and behind the neck press, for 30 mins with 20 second rest in between sets.

Sunday
Rest

The program does have a basis in Waterbury, in addition to the Bulgarian training regime, Arnold's high volume stuff, and an abject hatred of Mike Mentzer thrown in for good measure.
Look at these two douches. The one on the left is Mentzer, presumably at a mustache convention.
A word on rest periods- rest as little as possible. I typically rest about 45 seconds to one minute in between sets, singles included. That keeps the heart rate up, burns the Kcals, and improves your muscular endurance while building strength.

I do like doing jump sets, Waterbury style. I'll typically do them on my push-pull exercises, doing something along the lines of close grips jump setted with bent rows. I keep my rests super low, so it's almost a superset, but if you're working opposing muscle groups, the antagonist of the muscle you're working relaxes completely, so you should be pretty fresh, albeit winded.

On your off days, feel free to work your weak points if they're not too fatigued. There are weeks that I'll train shoulders 5x, but never do the same thing two days in a row. I always change the sets and reps, at least, and typically change the exercises as well. Thus, whatever bodypart you want to bring up, try training it 5 or 6 times a week, but alternate heave and light days, and cycle exercises.

An example:
Monday- Push Jerks 15x1
Tuesday- unloaded fat bar behind the neck press as part of a tri-set
Wednesday- Strict Military press (standing, feet together, no leg drive) 5x6
Thursday- Bodyweight dips (hits the front delts a bit)
Friday- Clean and Press 10x3
Saturday- Axe Hold with dumbbells for time

That's ChAoS and PAIN in a nutshell. A bloody great big nutshell. You love it. Now go lift something heavy until your ****ing eyes bleed.


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Now playing: Diskreet - The Bigger Complex

[kman025]

thanks BTB... i think that better represents C&P, since the whole poing of C&P is to do what you want to do.

[jdmalm123]

Originally Posted by TitanWIP

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Looks like fun. But it also looks like... Useless.
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Lots of bravado and such, but I don't know how applicable it is to everyone. My joints would be screwed and I would likely be injured if I tried to train like that. Personally, there are a bunch of other programs I would suggest before this one, but if you want to try it go ahead.
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Just like any program, it will work for some.
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This is not a program for a beginner or an early intermediate. Read: "Natural lifter".
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No thanks.
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I read the program, and it is just that. Chaos and Pain. Has no order rhyme or reason, and my joint hurt just reading it. so ill second HB and say no thanks
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As said already above the exercises seem rather jumbled and thrown together but here is some more specific criticism.

"One can build their capacity for work to whatever level they so desire, provided they're willing to invest enough time and effort."

This is demonstrably false. Yes you can immensely improve your capacity for work if you go about it the right way...but there is a limit for everyone and for some it's a lot sooner than others.

"Sets of 10-12 are useless..." Again false. They work and have worked well for many people. Just as higher reps may also work for some and lower reps for others.


"85% of 1 rep max on everything". He does add a caveat that if you are squatting 3 times a week the middle one should be light, but even with the caveat, this is a good way to injure yourself. It seems like a mixture of Bill Starr, Dogcrapp, Bulgarian powerlifting and some high rep-work thrown in altogether.

"Minimum of five days a week" (for training).

This is fine if you can handle it, but it needs to be properly designed (for example you shouldn't have four upper body days and one lower body day).

On the sample program he gave below, shoulders are being worked six days a week, not to mention the rest of upper body.
One or (at the most two) days of rest. Maybe if you are a highly advanced lifter you can get away with this stuff.
Six upper body days and only 3 lower body days (I don't count calf raises as a lower body day if they are the only lower body exercise done.)

Conclusion. It may work for him for now, but that doesn't mean it will work for others. I wouldn't do this nor recommend it.
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yeah wtf.... 85% of your 1RM for everything?? i guarantee he is going to kill himself not warming up one day.

"I'm afraid and not ready for this."

[onetiredkris]

I dunno.
I respond really well to once a week, single muscle group per day training, and this is the opposite.
Not saying anything bad about the program, it just doesn't look like its for me.

I like its training frequency though =]

Added my sig, just to clarify my allegiance.

[Bodybygamma]

Originally Posted by ChAoSandPAIN

Come on man, it's a ****ing lovefest over there. They're worshipping at my feet! Hahaha.

Congrats, by the way. I saw somewhere you crushed a meet recently.

Either way, I'll probably enter as a geared lifter and compete raw.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by ChAoSandPAIN

By the way, feel free to bash the **** out of me, the training methodology, or whatever else you see fit. I enjoy a little strife.

I think you will look like a ridiculous little girly man without 5ply briefs and a diaper underneath. I mean seriously your not going to wear a gnarly 3ply shirt that had a 4 board built into it?

Then deadlift sumo with your squat suit because it was so tight you choose to bench and deadlift in it rather then take it off? PSHHHH sissy LOL

[jwood]

Wannabebig's forum really pissed me off with chaos and pain, I feel like over there if they dont know you they will just tell you to do Starting Strength, why I don't know. I did starting strength as a beginner. Now I have figured out that I just love to train, so why not do chaos and pain.

I am in my 4th week of chaos and pain and honestly my joints feel better now then when I was doing westside. My body feels great right now, and I am actually doing light days, this never happened with westside. Results will not lie, so far I can not say I have any, but I am loving my training sessions now and I am always just thinking of what crazy **** I can do next. This does not happen when you only bench, squat, and deadlift. This program is just plain fun to me, and you have to have fun when you train. Jamie's results can not be argued with, dude is a monster could walk on stage at any moment and also crushes powerlifting. So why not?

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by jwood

I am in my 4th week of chaos and pain and honestly my joints feel better now then when I was doing westside. My body feels great right now, and I am actually doing light days,

The older I get Jwood, the more I am starting to hate too much complimentary, piddly work. 2 weeks ago I got the bug up my ass to change a few things. I HATE isolation movements, but thought..."OK, I am going to try and compete in bodybuilding so why not add a few in. Maybe I am being stubborn."

I added in more bicep work, a forearm exercise, rear laterals, calf raises, and leg curls. My joints are utterly beat up right now, and my elbow tendinitis is coming back. My curl form is locked down, so it's not a form issue.

I have found that my joints feel better when I avoid isolation work. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but when I stick with basics/compounds my joints feel great.

[jdmalm123]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

The older I get Jwood, the more I am starting to hate too much complimentary, piddly work. 2 weeks ago I got the bug up my ass to change a few things. I HATE isolation movements, but thought..."OK, I am going to try and compete in bodybuilding so why not add a few in. Maybe I am being stubborn."

I added in more bicep work, a forearm exercise, rear laterals, calf raises, and leg curls. My joints are utterly beat up right now, and my elbow tendinitis is coming back. My curl form is locked down, so it's not a form issue.

I have found that my joints feel better when I avoid isolation work. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but when I stick with basics/compounds my joints feel great.

I'll tell you Steve, the way I am running BD training, I feel like it's the best of strength and volume. I'm doing Iso's but not ad-nauseum. Just enough to feel pumped during and worked after, but no joint issues at all. In fact, my wounded shoulder feels better each week and I'm doing an entire shoulders only workout in addition to a dedicated arms day!

That's not normal, but it's great!

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by jdmalm123

I'll tell you Steve, the way I am running BD training, I feel like it's the best of strength and volume. I'm doing Iso's but not ad-nauseum. Just enough to feel pumped during and worked after, but no joint issues at all. In fact, my wounded shoulder feels better each week and I'm doing an entire shoulders only workout in addition to a dedicated arms day!

That's not normal, but it's great!

My shoulders have always disliked isolations. They took quite a beating in my teens from pitching about a thousand innings a year...we had a playground across from my house. Whenever I do too maybe laterals or flyes, I start to feel a bit rough.

And I'm not sure what my issue is with curls, but too many sets and my tendinitis flares up quickly.

I am mentally like Mulder...I want to believe in isolations...but physically I am Scully...I've never really used them, and have a hard time seeing the value.

I hope no one reading this equates my sentiments as meaning "they have no value". I just - personally - see no value in them.

But if they helped my joints, I'm sure I would use them for pre-hab.