Squat - hips back before squatting

[Beverly McD]

Nothing wrong with raw lifting.
Nothing wrong with geared lifting either.
They're different. Different means just that. Different. It doesn't make one right and one wrong.

[5kgLifter]

Originally Posted by kitarpyar

I believe a lot of this could be due to Ripp's videos, where he asks the lifters to lock their lumbar in a good position -

I agree, Rippetoe also insists the elbows are raised at the back in order to shove the barbell into the back which is also very predominant in a lot of lifters. It wasn't until this past few months that I saw that positioning to be incorrect but Rippetoe advocates it in his DVDs, and is forever seen pulling people's elbows up and back at the start of their squat set-up.

[5kgLifter]

Starting Strength DVD -- Squat - YouTube

Starting Strength DVD -- Squat - YouTube

Mark Rippetoe: Coaching the Squat - YouTube

Mark Rippetoe: Coaching the Squat - YouTube

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter

I agree, Rippetoe also insists the elbows are raised at the back in order to shove the barbell into the back which is also very predominant in a lot of lifters. It wasn't until this past few months that I saw that positioning to be incorrect but Rippetoe advocates it in his DVDs, and is forever seen pulling people's elbows up and back at the start of their squat set-up.

I personally think it's a pretty complex topic. It's hard to force the elbows back and up without getting more forward lean. But it can be done. A lot of novices will fly their elbows up, keep their upper backs too loose and inadvertently lean more forward. The result is more of a good morning type squat.

All I want to see in a squat are tight elbows that move very little. This generally indicates that the upper back is staying tight. If you watch videos of high rep sets, you'll generally notice these 2 trends on plenty of them:

1) Reps start to get less upright over time.
2) Elbows slowly creep higher and higher on each rep.

A lifter has to concentrate on keeping the upper back tight, and part of this is locking the elbows tight and in place. Things have to stay tight. When they aren't form goes to heck.

Tight elbows/back are certainly not a cure all, but they have to be a focus.

[5kgLifter]

It wasn't until I did some reading and found out that it's not really about elbow positioning so much as it is about scapular positioning that I started to have decent squat form; it was an eye-opener for me. And to think, prior to that, I probably looked though I was using poor form as well due to the must keep those elbows high with tight back instruction that I had followed up to that point.

Once I took on the scapular positioning theory/stance everything flowed and squats became much easier.

[70sBB]

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter

It wasn't until I did some reading and found out that it's not really about elbow positioning so much as it is about scapular positioning that I started to have decent squat form; it was an eye-opener for me. And to think, prior to that, I probably looked though I was using poor form as well due to the must keep those elbows high with tight back instruction that I had followed up to that point.

Once I took on the scapular positioning theory/stance everything flowed and squats became much easier.

Would you mind explaining? This is all new to me

[5kgLifter]

Originally Posted by 70sBB

Would you mind explaining? This is all new to me

"you retract your scapula by lifting your elbows" this is the normally taught stuff, however, you do not need to lift the elbows in order to be able to retract the scapula.

[Bodybygamma]

[quote=J_Byrd;275725]

Originally Posted by Bodybygamma

You must have mistaken me for a WS guy? I dont train WS, not even close. I have lifted against them though, their raw strength is off the chart as well. I am sure they are like me, just not interested in raw meets.

Also when did it get about their training method? I thought we were talking about squat form, then I drifted the topic away lol!

One more thing, I agree WS isnt the best method out there for drug free raw lifters. LTL made a good run of it.

Nah I didn't big bag Jbyrd, and I have no cyber gripes. I just go off on a tangent with elite fts, supertraining and westside because its a lot of marketing bullshit they spew out which further pushes us away from another golden age of powerlifting.

I bash the METHODS because in my mind the way anyone trains is directly co-related to their form.Westside method advocates using form to move more weight with gear not moving more weight with your own body so if your form is shit even if you get stronger you are only talking 5-15lbs when it should be 30-50lbs. That is why I attack them for having crappy raw lifters:

Westside of course has some strong lifters, but compared to the elite best of the best raw lifters, westside fails in comparison. Ed Coan the living legend's training focused all around re-enforcing good technique,building the correct muscle and peakingSimple, Basic, Effective. No bands, no chains, no bull$hit. Not to say those movements don't help but not nearly as much as straight weight.

That all being said I got some good gains off some off "Westside" training methods the problem is it isn't really their methods,its the incorrect application of different training typologies for the goal of marketing and advertising strongest gym, instead of strongest pound for pound lifters.

All the old school powerlifters were much better in training, form, physique, numbers and strength all around. Westside is popular because of the numbers, louie always brags about #'s but how many of them travel the world and compete in strict feds and truly put up reputatble numbers?

Beyond 2,000 lbs Raw - YouTube

Beyond 2,000 lbs Raw - YouTube

[Bodybygamma]

Originally Posted by Beverly McD.

Nothing wrong with raw lifting.
Nothing wrong with geared lifting either.
They're different. Different means just that. Different. It doesn't make one right and one wrong.

I dissagree because there is something wrong with someone deadlifting the bar off your chest when you bench giving you a bro spot and then you claiming its your lift in the strength world so what is gear?

If I squatted 3000lbs with a fork lift in back of my but I made contact with the bar shouldn't I get credit? That is not the same thing ok so what if I had specially made briefs with hi-jack support on the side and 7meter magic wraps with elephant lined with elephant tendons on and a 5play canvas suit I need to placed around my body and be stiched in the cast... When does it end.

GEAR = EGO. You can buy good gear, break it in, work the shit out of it and get results. You can't find any short cuts for RAW strength. Not even juice, because there are plenty of weak bodybuilders and gym rats out there.

And this is why I disagree with this statement. Gear is worse then doping is in the sport IMO.

[Beverly McD]

You probably know Ed Coan and Louie Simmons better than I do. I've only met them a few times, very little conversation with either.
I've met Ed at a few multi-ply meets. He seemed to be having a great time. He has a keen eye and is very helpful to the lifters.
I remember sitting in the audience beside Louie at a Loiuisana meet once. He was very informative and helpful. He answered every question I had.