Some Back-up

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by Off Road

They think that it's a much better use of time to jump under the bar right away and start pushing it.

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Obviously I wasn't pushing bodyweight work, but I was pushing simplicity and foundation building.

It really is a horrendous state of affairs when you're being crucified for just stating that people need to build a foundation and learn the lifts. For me a few factors are needed before I would be comfortable in someone pushing hard under the bar. A quick list off the top of my head:

1) Decent form on the big 5; Squats, Deads, Benches, Chins/Rows and Presses. Decent form is good enough to not get hurt. Obviously form is something which people always need to work on.

2) An understanding of diet and some clean and healthy eating habits. We don't need to split hairs over what's clean, I think most people know what's good food and what isn't.

3) A decent level of cardiovascular conditioning. I don't want anyone keeling over from over-exertion.

4) An appreciation of the role of rest and recuperation on training.

Essentially once that relatively short list is fulfilled I would feel comfortable in allowing someone to start pushing a little harder. They would still be doing 2-3 x full body sessions a week, using relatively high reps in the big 5. But I'd feel more comfortable in allowing weight increases.

[5kgLifter]

Though I agree with the issue of bodyweight exercise and general fitness etc prior to "specialising" with barbell work, there are also exceptions to the rule where it wouldn't work and those have to be considered.




Just as an example:
Mary McGregor only started Olympic lifting at the age of 55y/o having not done any prior exercise. At age 60 she broke all the american records, and world records in her category.


The exercise plan she was put on was tailored to her and had to be reduced for recovery etc.




And, as an extra funny, if 100 push-ups were needed prior to using weights, I'd have never bought a barbell, due to my TOS issues

[Ryano]

I've said if before and will say it again. People try to over analyze training. Go to the gym lift heavy weights and you will get stronger with proper diet and nutrition. Do you need to do 100 pushups before bench pressing? NO. Can you optimize training gains by "tweeking" what works for you??? Yes. Basically, if you want to get stronger at any lift is, load the bar, for that lift. 'Nuff said.

[Off Road]

Originally Posted by Fazc

1) Decent form on the big 5; Squats, Deads, Benches, Chins/Rows and Presses. Decent form is good enough to not get hurt. Obviously form is something which people always need to work on.

2) An understanding of diet and some clean and healthy eating habits. We don't need to split hairs over what's clean, I think most people know what's good food and what isn't.

3) A decent level of cardiovascular conditioning. I don't want anyone keeling over from over-exertion.

4) An appreciation of the role of rest and recuperation on training.

Amen...Class dismissed

[Fazc]

Although I'll say this, I'm not massively surprised that you guys got that reaction *over there*. The short time I was *over there* I clashed with a couple of guys on similar basic issues. People of similar ideals and thinking tend to flock to forums which cater to their views, I just think *over there* is too dissimilar to here.

But on average over here we're bigger, stronger and FAR sexier than they are *over there*. So NUHHH to them!!

[Off Road]

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter

And, as an extra funny, if 100 push-ups were needed prior to using weights, I'd have never bought a barbell, due to my TOS issues

I agree. For my son, I started him on bar dips and light military press when he could do 3 sets of 20 reps on his push-ups. I think you have to take the individual into consideration, but either way, 100 push-ups is a LOT.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter

Though I agree with the issue of bodyweight exercise and general fitness etc prior to "specialising" with barbell work, there are also exceptions to the rule where it wouldn't work and those have to be considered.

I agree. Some people are more ready than others, especially some adults.

When I got back into things in 2007 I used pushups, chair dips, rack chins and situps for a month before I hit the weights. I just felt so horribly out of shape that this seemed like a good option.

I get a ton of questions from teens looking for a launching point, many of then 13 to 14. I am always hesitant to launch them right into weights, so this gives me food for thought.

[5kgLifter]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I agree. For my son, I started him on bar dips and light military press when he could do 3 sets of 20 reps on his push-ups. I think you have to take the individual into consideration, but either way, 100 push-ups is a LOT.

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

I agree. Some people are more ready than others, especially some adults.

When I got back into things in 2007 I used pushups, chair dips, rack chins and situps for a month before I hit the weights. I just felt so horribly out of shape that this seemed like a good option.

I get a ton of questions from teens looking for a launching point, many of then 13 to 14. I am always hesitant to launch them right into weights, so this gives me food for thought.

Yeah, as a teen, I did sit-ups every morning before school (went through a phase); and every evening, did 100 bodyweight calf raises and 100 squats, as well as push-ups (may have been 100 accumulative but I don't think so)...then it was feasible but not now, I'd have to drop the push-ups, at least.

I recollect lots of comments to myself and my sister, at the time, about the size of our calves...really not sure if it worked, or if it was mostly down to genetics anyway and we were just building on that by being fitter and stronger to some degree.

[Kuytrider]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I agree. For my son, I started him on bar dips and light military press when he could do 3 sets of 20 reps on his push-ups. I think you have to take the individual into consideration, but either way, 100 push-ups is a LOT.

Your son is fortunate that he has someone with good knowledge guiding him for sure.
I do agree that 100 reps for push ups is a lot (My PR for one set is about half that) but having some bodyweight training as a novice can really only be of great benefit prior to getting your mitts on the weights. Dips and chins/pulls are also a win.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by 5kgLifter

Yeah, as a teen, I did sit-ups every morning before school (went through a phase); and every evening, did 100 bodyweight calf raises and 100 squats, as well as push-ups (may have been 100 accumulative but I don't think so)...then it was feasible but not now, I'd have to drop the push-ups, at least.

I recollect lots of comments to myself and my sister, at the time, about the size of our calves...really not sure if it worked, or if it was mostly down to genetics anyway and we were just building on that by being fitter and stronger to some degree.

I did a billion step ups in my day, long before I did any leg work. I have always wondered if my "natural" calf and quad size were tied into this.