Too much protein?

[Shadowschmadow]

Steve, I do draw my own conclusions. So yes, I did see that.

And I can tell you that there is almost always something that can be pinpointed as the cause for people who do not have success eating less frequently. I very rarely will take any one's personal experiences as a measurement of effectiveness; too many inconsistencies and inaccuracies.

I'm not advocating IF at all, hell I'm not stating 3x a day is superior, I'm stating that the basic principles of eating 6x a day has been proven by multiple sources to hold no significant value over the standard 3x a day. Eat as you please for all I care. From my standpoint, it all will work as long as the basics are in place.

And honestly, I'm not trying to insult you, but I believe that if you lost muscle while dieting without frequently eating, but retain muscle when frequently eating; there is something else that these results could most likely be attributed to.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Mr. Shadow

, I'm stating that the basic principles of eating 6x a day has been proven by multiple sources to hold no significant value over the standard 3x a day.

"Proven" is a strong word Shadow, especially when looked at through the lens of what actually is working.

I would not force myself out on this limb if I didn't believe it was a safe place to be. Bodybuilders need to be precise. They are extreme students of the body.

On the other hand, I have seen scores of studies that do NOT take place on top level athletes, but rather on average Joes performing leg extensions in a controlled environment. These scientists often (I am being kind and should have said rarely ever) fail to understand even the most basic of principles that are cornerstones in the lifting game - for example, beginner gains.

I would bet my left (and probably my right) testicle that the studies used to compile Lyle's conclusions were NOT performed on athletes who have accumulated at least 15-20 pounds of muscle, and do not mimic the same biophysical demands that these athletes face every day.

A beginner can do just about anything and make gains...and I would wager EASILY with only 3 meals per day.

An experienced lifter who is trying their hardest to maintain (and gain) muscle mass which is easily relinquished by the body under the most mild of circumstances doesn't play by the same rules as a beginner.

Therefore, I am very skeptical about any studies related to protein intake and frequent feeding, especially in the light of the reality that no bodybuilder to my knowledge has ever been let down by frequent feeding.

I will end my thoughts with a quote from Rippetoe:

You are right to be wary. There is much bullshit. Be wary of me too, because I may be wrong. Make up your own mind after you evaluate all the evidence and the logic.

[Shadowschmadow]

That's a strong argument and a valid one, however, there are still examples of those who do it without eating 6x a day. Not to be repetitive, but back tracking to the beginning; Martin Berkhan is at a rather elite level for a natural bodybuilder. Do you not agree?

Steve, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm supporting that there are multiple methods that work, yours included.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Mr. Shadow

And honestly, I'm not trying to insult you, but I believe that if you lost muscle while dieting without frequently eating, but retain muscle when frequently eating; there is something else that these results could most likely be attributed to.

The only variable that changed in the equation was meal frequency. It was the factor that caused me to lose muscle. I have been counting calories and taking caliper readings for nearly 25 years. I am confident in my assessment.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Mr. Shadow

Martin Berkhan is at a rather elite level for a natural bodybuilder. Do you not agree?

He is lean, and I have no doubt IF can help you get lean. But being ripped is not the same as having the skill to hold muscle while cutting, nor build muscle. In fact, looking at how small he appears to be, if only fortifies my concerns that IF leads to muscle loss.

One thing you learn from being around natural bodybuilders is that they look much bigger in pictures. Also, the leaner they get, the bigger they look. While he does have low bodyfat levels, this does not indicate an ability to retain muscle while cutting.

To me, his size is very sub-par. Just keeping it real here. He does have nice biceps and delts, but like I said, I know from being around naturals (in person and not in e-space) that they are always much smaller than they look in pictures. And he does not look big at all in pictures.

A good muscle shape will make you appear bigger but it does not paint a picture of what it's like to stand next to the bodybuilder and understand his size with a decent frame of reference.

So to answer your question, no, I do not consider him near an elite level bodybuilder. He would probably win his class at a local show based on conditioning, but he is certainly no where near elite.

There are certain indicators as to just what his size would look like in person, one being arm to head size ratio.

I know several top level pro naturals who are superstars online. They look 5 times (not really, but you get my point) as big as Martin in pictures. But in person, you probably wouldn't know they were bodybuilders if they had their shirts on.

Martin to be looks like an average guy who has went through beginner gains, added maybe 10 pounds of muscle, has good bicep peaks, and got ripped. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, being ripped makes you look much bigger than you are. Check out a local show sometime. It will help build that perspective.

I do not want to make this about IF or Martin. I have never stated that if won't work for some. But it certainly won't work for all. Many prominent voices stand in my corner on that one.

[gaspers04]

4-6 meals a day, High Pro. and Moderate Fat intake with minimal Carbs. Average Protein intake is between 280 and 325 grams per day. This works for me so I use it. That is all...

[Violent Volume]

Originally Posted by Mr. Shadow

You're not going to hear me argue that meal frequency doesn't work, but to suggest that anything other is equal to or less ideal, IMO would be an uneducated statement.

Uneducated? This is an insult and you're arrogant.

[Boucher]

Originally Posted by *MC*

I thought the meal frequency ideas regarding more meals or spacing meals 3 hours apart was more about controlling insulin spikes and blood sugar levels? That and the fact that it can be damned hard to eat 1800 calories in one meal.

In the book Better Than Steroids By Dr. Warren Willey he speaks a great deal about controlling insulin spikes throughout the day. It is a very interesting book. He is a bodybuilder too, so if you're the type who wants there expert to look the part then he does a good job of it.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Boucher

In the book Better Than Steroids By Dr. Warren Willey he speaks a great deal about controlling insulin spikes throughout the day. It is a very interesting book. He is a bodybuilder too, so if you're the type who wants there expert to look the part then he does a good job of it.

Excellent book.

Definitely a must read. By a bodybuiklder, for bodybuilders and lifters.