Intermittent Fasting Debates

[BendtheBar]

And again...

The entire section on meal timing is bogus. For years it's been shown that meal timing and frequency is essentially irrelevant as long as you're hitting your designated caloric and macronutrient levels for the day. Telling someone they need to eat breakfast, have a pre-/post-workout meal, or consume protein at bedtime is bogus. You only have to look as far as those in the intermittent fasting community to see how effective fat loss protocols are by eating 1-2 times/day

You only have to look at competitive natural bodybuilders to know that meal frequency is not irrelevant.

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

You only have to look at competitive natural bodybuilders to know that meal frequency is not irrelevant.

So is it just the fact that natural bodybuilders eat frequently proof enough that it's not irrelevant and/or not down to other factors such as the component of the diet and training done?

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Fazc

So is it just the fact that natural bodybuilders eat frequently proof enough that it's not irrelevant

Yes.

It's worthy as an option because of it's track record of success.

not down to other factors such as the component of the diet

Most diets are unique to the bodybuilder, but exist within a relatively conventional PCF grouping:

1) Protein 150-250 grams per day
2) Fats 20-40% of cals.
3) Fill in the blanks with carbs.

This diet uniqueness exists for any approach in which someone is trying to lose fat and maintain muscle. It can be applied to any eating approach, but does not guarantee equal results.

Therefore, the makeup of the meal, and the plan itself, go hand in hand with frequent feeding. They work together, and have a track record of success together.

training done

Everyone who has at least a minor degree off success is doing something right in the gym, at least with a bare minimum of consistency and progression. (Unless they are the rare freaks)

This will maximize nearly any eating plan, but it does not make all eating plans equal.

[Fazc]

I know you have your frustrations with the IF crowd, but I think you have to be careful not to go completely in the other direction either.

Meal frequency tends to follow the trend of the times (just like many other things), whilst it's true a higher meal frequency has been popular in recent decades and has a track record of proven results, it wasn't always that way.

Reg Park for example never ate 6 meals per day, neither did Steve Reeves. Both were reported to have eaten 3 times a day, in Reeves' example it was 2 times plus a snack. Again a trend of the times.

While I don't agree with some IF'ers who have taken to trashing a higher meal frequency and anyone who uses that, I do think a certain degree of open mindedness is needed on both sides. IF is a relatively new concept (in recent times) and it will take a while for it to sift through into popular use but just because it hasn't yet been used by natural bodybuilder's isn't in itself proof of it being a poor option. I think we're at, or past, a tipping point for IF and it has become entrenched enough into the fitness community so that it will be given a chance to become a viable option in the fitness/bodybuilder community over time.

[Violent Volume]

Irrelevant? Most idiotic thing I've read all month.

[mr_bigmuscles]

I don't do IF, simply because I am trying to gain weight and don't care about abs right now. Ergo, I stuff my face at every opportunity.

However, I do think there's good science behind benefits of IF that are probably irrelevant (there's that word again!) to the strength training crowd - chiefly lower fasting blood sugar levels, promotion of cellular repair, and some beneficial effects on the endocrine system involving leptin and ghrelin which admittedly I don't fully understand.

Art deVany's book on paleo diet/lifestyle, which takes a much broader view (IF is only a small part of it) is interesting and well-referenced. It's worth reading IMO.

[5kgLifter]

Originally Posted by Fazc

I think you have to be careful not to go completely in the other direction either.

I was just about to voice this opinion, it's not an either/or scenario...both systems (and a lot more unknown "systems" in addition, possibly) seem to be working for a number of people.

The issue appears to be the narrow-minded, possibly newcomers, that see it as an either/or and that ends up getting a definitive yes/no response when it's very clear that both systems have merit.

In addition, as highlighted by mr_bigmuscles, it's not always about the meal timing per se, some IFers also follow the diet because of the added benefits that the body may be able to gain from it: I know there's quite a hefty list, which I've no intention of writing out.

Many of us, at one point or another have done the frequent meals and the IF-style and gained in some way; I guarantee that if it were suggested to the narrow-minded crowd that a person can eat 11 meals and more and still gain lean mass, they would be all out to say there was no need...maybe not but it can be done.

IMO, it still boils down to the amount of calories consumed with it being so easy to undereat with less meals and easier to overeat with more, where weight gain and loss is concerned in relation to diet and training.

[TitanCT]

frequent feeding works. has worked for decades.

besides, fasting kicks in starvation...we all know what that does to muscle.

i dare lean gains to tell jay cutler he's doing it wrong when he wakes up in the middle of the night to nom his fish filets.

[Bill]

my buddy jumped on the leangains bandwagon...they are like a damn cult. the most annoying group of people i have ever seen.

funny though, all of them are like 150lbs and want abs.

I'm sure it works for some people; but don't go calling 6 small meals a day or whatever bodybuilders do crap, especially when those bodybuilders are 100lbs heavier and 2x stronger.

[BendtheBar]

A few quotes from John Kiefer (that I happen to agree with).

Intermittent Fasting: Part 2, The Fight's Over Dangerously Hardcore

I like the idea of Intermittent Fasting, I’m just not keen on the results. It is easy to not eat all day then blast through a few thousand calories before hitting the sack (or burning the midnight oil in my case). I can say it definitely causes weight loss (at least this particular protocol)—the problem is what kind of tissue the lost weight comes from.

This transformation (more like a degradation) not only ignited my ire, it sparked curiosity into why IF didn’t preserve my muscle mass as promised, despite the supposed massive increase in GH. If there’s anything I hate more than losing muscle mass, it’s a question without an answer.

Exact reason why I modified it in 2008 to include morning protein. Warrior Diet's Ori Hofmekler suggested the same notion if muscle building/retention was a main focus. Wesley Silviera, who has had scores of individuals run intermittent style fasting protocols, states in his book that it works better or some than for others.

The point I will keep beating, until someone beats me into shutting up, is that I believe intermittent fasting may result in muscle loss for some. So please, if you begin intermittent fasting, it may be beneficial to add protein during the underfeeding period.

There are more than a few individuals cautioning that intermittent fasting may not yield the best results for muscle building. Just know this before you begin your journey, and listen to your body.