Intermittent Fasting Debates

[BendtheBar]

This is the feedback I get at least twice a day. This one is fresh off the griddle. If you want my honest opinion this is starting to feel like Mike Mentzer all over again. The bolded part is critical, because the article was about cutting for bodybuilding. I report, you decide.

Bullshit or not, frequent feeding has never let a bodybuilder down that I am aware of. Sorry if that offends anyone but it's the truth, and if you can't handle the truth, then you're only short-changing yourself.

Here is my personal case study:

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I've personally interviewed, profiled, and documented the approaches of over 200 amazing physiques in the past several years, all with plenty of real-world experience cutting, all who look great, and perhaps one - maybe one of the transformations - used intermittent fasting.

Again, I respect intermittent fasting, believe it's great for weight loss, and use a variation myself. With that said, frequent feeding works, and has a track record.

I think too much weight is being placed on the science here, and the role of the athlete in this mix is being underscored. It is rarely one single approach that is magic. The magic usually comes from the athlete's ability to modify this program to fit their needs.

If these athletes were to use intermittent fasting I am confident they would modify it to fit their needs, and at this point in the game, I'm not sure a portion of the intermittent fasting community could handle this personal modification. I know because I deal with frequent attacks because of my modifications.

By the way, I have not read anyone's responses yet, so my comments are generalized remarks. I hope everyone understands that.

A lot of bullshit in this article...

meal frequency is irrelevant to body composition

Start with Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

I also suggest you read:

Increased meal frequency does not promote greater ... [Br J Nutr. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
This study shows there was no difference in weight loss between subjects with high/low meal frequencies.

Meal frequency and energy balance. [Br J Nutr. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
Evidence supports that meal frequency has nothing to do with energy in the subjects.

Compared with nibbling, neithe... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
Yet again, no difference in energy in the subjects compared to 2 meals/d to 6 meals/d.

And if you want to do some more detailed digging, you can read:

Influence of the feeding frequency on nutrie... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI
Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Mar;45(3):161-9.Links
Influence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism.

Compared with nibbling, neithe... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Apr;25(4):519-28.Links
Compared with nibbling, neither gorging nor a morning fast affect short-term energy balance in obese patients in a chamber calorimeter.

Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile o... [Br J Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI
Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1316-21. Epub 2007 Dec 6. Links
Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency.

Influence of the feeding frequency on nutrie... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI
Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Mar;45(3):161-9.Links
Influence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism.

Compared with nibbling, neithe... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Apr;25(4):519-28.Links
Compared with nibbling, neither gorging nor a morning fast affect short-term energy balance in obese patients in a chamber calorimeter
Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile o... [Br J Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI
Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1316-21. Epub 2007 Dec 6. Links
Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency.

Meal frequency and energy balance. [Br J Nutr. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70. Links
Meal frequency and energy balance.

Highlighting the positive impact of increasing fe... [Forum Nutr. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
Forum Nutr. 2003;56:126-8.Links
Highlighting the positive impact of increasing feeding frequency on metabolism and weight management.

Evidence that eating frequency... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998 Feb;22(2):105-12.Links
Evidence that eating frequency is inversely related to body weight status in male, but not female, non-obese adults reporting valid dietary intakes.
Decreased thermic effect of fo... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 May;28(5):653-60. Links
Decreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women.

Regular meal frequency creates more appropri... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Jul;58(7):1071-7. Links
Regular meal frequency creates more appropriate insulin sensitivity and lipid profiles compared with irregular meal frequency in healthy lean women.

Association of eating frequency with... [Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007 Jan;15(1):100-6. Links
Association of eating frequency with body fatness in pre- and postmenopausal women.

Beneficial metabolic effects of regular meal ... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):16-24. Links
Comment in:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jan;81(1):3-4.
Beneficial metabolic effects of regular meal frequency on dietary thermogenesis, insulin sensitivity, and fasting lipid profiles in healthy obese women

Acute appetite reduction assoc... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999 Nov;23(11):1151-9.Links
Acute appetite reduction associated with an increased frequency of eating in obese males.

read: The Dirt on Clean Eating | Wannabebig
Is there a limit to how much protein the body can use in a single meal? | Wannabebig

[Fazc]

I agree with you Btb, but I do feel you're fighting a losing battle. It isn't even a matter of IF Vs Frequent Feeds either, people with this mentality won't be dissuaded.

You can't talk rationally with irrational people.

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

If you want my honest opinion this is starting to feel like Mike Mentzer all over again.

I've made this comment regarding several diet/training protocols which have been the flavour of the month throughout the decades. It's just one thing after another. Some people need to conform to something that they feel is greater than themselves, this unquestioning, unerring faith isn't just restricted to dietary or training protocols either. It's possible to disagree with person's opinions but an ideal is harder to overcome, and people who don't have enough strength in their own convictions will steadfastedly align themselves with an ideal as they don't have or want the necessary strength in their own convictions and opinions to discuss or even to think of things themselves and the arrogance to think they need to know something about everything.

Why do you think is so Jeremy Clarkson is so popular in the UK? He's an abrupt, unintelligent simpleton who has an opinion on everything but knows nothing. He's popular not because he talks sense, he's popular because he tells people who can't think for themselves, what to think.

It's a combination of weakness of character and undeserved arrogance.

[Kuytrider]

Originally Posted by Fazc

You can't talk rationally with irrational people.

In a nutshell!

Originally Posted by Fazc

I've made this comment regarding several diet/training protocols which have been the flavour of the month throughout the decades. It's just one thing after another. Some people need to conform to something that they feel is greater than themselves, this unquestioning, unerring faith isn't just restricted to dietary or training protocols either. It's possible to disagree with person's opinions but an ideal is harder to overcome, and people who don't have enough strength in their own convictions will steadfastedly align themselves with an ideal as they don't have or want the necessary strength in their own convictions and opinions to discuss or even to think of things themselves and the arrogance to think they need to know something about everything.

It's a combination of weakness of character and undeserved arrogance.

Also, spot on. It seems as if thinking for yourself and having the balls and determination to do what YOU think is best for YOU is one of the hardest damned things to do for most people.
Following the herd and having 'safety in numbers' is a far easier option isn't it?
It does piss me off immensely to hear people steadfastly stick to one opinion (especially in the health and fitness industry where there are 100s of ideas) and take it as Gospel whilst completely ignoring other ideas that are at least plausible. [In this case, people who ignore or lambast frequent feeding are actually going against a principle that has plenty of case studies in its favour]

This kind of thinking ensures that these individuals will never truly learn and always be stuck in their own little bubble.

You and I are doing experiments on ourselves using IF-type protocols but even if it yields excellent results for one or both of us, neither party will start promoting it as the 'be all and end all', just that it's a good individual solution.

Bottom line on my little ramble, experiment and test new things out but don't get carried away and lambast other things if your experiment actually works. There's a big world to explore, let's not allow ourselves to miss out.

Originally Posted by Fazc

Why do you think is so Jeremy Clarkson is so popular in the UK? He's an abrupt, unintelligent simpleton who has an opinion on everything but knows nothing. He's popular not because he talks sense, he's popular because he tells people who can't think for themselves, what to think.

He really is a cretin. Just another example of talentlessness triumphing.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Fazc

You can't talk rationally with irrational people.

Originally Posted by Fazc

It isn't even a matter of IF Vs Frequent Feeds either, people with this mentality won't be dissuaded.

Point taken.

We try some pretty strange and unique eating approaches here on MAB, at least strange when viewed through the lens of frequent feeding. I myself do Paleo Intermittent Fasting with morning protein and weekend carb refeeds. I have no idea why what I do works, but it works. I've spend years making personal modifications. I can bulk on this approach. I can cut on this approach. I've done both during the last 5 years, successfully.

The big battle is with the either/or mentality.

I've been attacked by proponents of frequent feeding for advocating variations, so I know what it's like to be a tweener. My only hope for anyone is that they learn, experiment, and remain willing to tweak things no matter what the far ends of the spectrum say. This is really what my battle is about, as you were able to state far more concisely.

It's possible to disagree with person's opinions but an ideal is harder to overcome, and people who don't have enough strength in their own convictions will steadfastedly align themselves with an ideal as they don't have or want the necessary strength in their own convictions and opinions to discuss or even to think of things themselves and the arrogance to think they need to know something about everything.

I was just thinking about this a few minutes ago, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Why do you think is so Jeremy Clarkson is so popular in the UK? He's an abrupt, unintelligent simpleton who has an opinion on everything but knows nothing. He's popular not because he talks sense, he's popular because he tells people who can't think for themselves, what to think.

Again, an excellent point. I was driving home last night listening to a talk radio personality and the thought struck me...he is very opinionated and passionate about his convictions, I could see why people who are looking for direction latch onto him.

I can't lie, I've been pulled in by conviction and passion. I've rallied around causes, both political, religious and exercise related. I was looking for direction at these times in my life, and occasionally feeling overwhelmed I would align with the passionate, convicted voice instead of processing information myself.

I think I was too insecure at these times just to step out and make my own path. Perhaps I also wanted everything to be black or white, good or bad, and to align with the "good guys" or fight against the bad guys.

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

The big battle is with the either/or mentality.

Exactly.

And i'll add to that, getting people to think for themselves is an extension of that battle agains the either/or mentality. Blindly listening to any one of us, or indeed any 'routine' or 'program' on the internet is still conforming to someone else's mentality and still leads in to a black or white view of the world. What I like to see is an intelligent discourse, some conversation, some debate before people are committed to doing something. Part of what increases adherence to any change in life, is an ability to interpret that change through your own eyes and make it your own, to claim ownership of it. This can only be made possible if you think it through, match it with your own experiences and we have the perfect platform here on this board to do so.

Of course this has it's pros and cons, if you allow the type of discussion where you're imparting your own knowledge in a way which allows the other party to feel like they have ownership of the idea, they can always run away with it without a regard for thanks or acknowledgement. But you learn not to deal with people like that too much.

I can't lie, I've been pulled in by conviction and passion. I've rallied around causes, both political, religious and exercise related. I was looking for direction at these times in my life, and occasionally feeling overwhelmed I would align with the passionate, convicted voice instead of processing information myself.

That you and I actually have an open discourse in the Increasing Strength thread is perfect for that very reason, ultimately an open discourse helps both parties, we both learn and that should be the aim for people here.

I think I was too insecure at these times just to step out and make my own path. Perhaps I also wanted everything to be black or white, good or bad, and to align with the "good guys" or fight against the bad guys.

Yes, I think that's partly the responsibility of the writer and partly that of the reader. My style of writing has never really been very popular on some forums, I don't stylise what I'm saying or talk in an accent or try to appeal to the 'common man' (whoever he is), I write in a fairly formal monotone and don't try to be the "good guy". I don't want to be listened to because of my style of writing, if people read what I'm writing because I might talk sense every once in a while then that is enough.

[BendtheBar]

Dear Steve,

eating more frequent meal with lesser protein quantity IS NO GOOD. eating more protein meal may increase absorption in the body, but not necessarily more protein synthesis (which is responsible for muscle building). Different food groups have different amounts of leucine which is responsible for protein synthesis, so it's recommended you have higher protein for lesser meals than lesser protein for more meals.

Every bodybuilder in the last 30+ years has used it and it has never let one of them down. You can call it "no good" if you want to, but it has a track record with real world results. Eat how you want, I really don't care. Just down downplay the last 30+ years of bodybuilding because you read a persuasive article on the Internet.

Intermittent fasting might be great for muscle building. That doesn't mean frequent feeding isn't. Perhaps this isn't a black or white question. Perhaps hard, progressive and consistent training is a bigger factor. Perhaps...

[Fazc]

eating more frequent meal with lesser protein quantity IS NO GOOD. eating more protein meal may increase absorption in the body, but not necessarily more protein synthesis (which is responsible for muscle building). Different food groups have different amounts of leucine which is responsible for protein synthesis, so it's recommended you have higher protein for lesser meals than lesser protein for more meals.

Intermittent Fasting debate over, done, finito. He has cracked it.

[Tannhauser]

Originally Posted by Fazc

Why do you think is so Jeremy Clarkson is so popular in the UK? He's an abrupt, unintelligent simpleton who has an opinion on everything but knows nothing. He's popular not because he talks sense, he's popular because he tells people who can't think for themselves, what to think.

Just quoted for my pleasure.

Do you think that lack of experience comes into this all-or-nothing thinking? I wonder if a lot of the acolytes are very young guys?

After you've been training for some years, you've invested a lot of effort into various dietary approaches, supplements, gurus, training protocols - and many of these asserted that they were going to bring extraordinary results. So you get to see the patterns emerging and to be a little bit more cautious in judgements. Maybe you can't do that without some experience. I remember being thoroughly persuaded by Mike Mentzer's arguments first time around...

The issue of science further complicates the issue. Ultimately, my strong belief is that science -whilst by no means perfect - is the best way to investigate applications of human biology (like training and nutrition). It;s the best way of establishing with reasonable confidence that A causes B. The problem is -and this will sound very arrogant - is that most people don't have a clue how science works. They think that a single published study establishes a conclusion. This is very far from the truth. Science works through a gradual accumulation of evidence. Findings need to be consistently repeated before the finding is considered robust. And studies need to be assessed on the quality of their evidence.

[bruteforce]

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

The problem is -and this will sound very arrogant - is that most people don't have a clue how science works. They think that a single published study establishes a conclusion. This is very far from the truth. Science works through a gradual accumulation of evidence. Findings need to be consistently repeated before the finding is considered robust. And studies need to be assessed on the quality of their evidence.

Makes me wonder how many people reading the one off studies read down to the bit that says "these differences were statistically insignificant" or other such disclaimers. Sure, some have significant differences, but a lot of folks just seem to read the abstract and decide thats all there is to know.

[kitarpyar]

Originally Posted by bruteforce

Makes me wonder how many people reading the one off studies read down to the bit that says "these differences were statistically insignificant" or other such disclaimers. Sure, some have significant differences, but a lot of folks just seem to read the abstract and decide thats all there is to know.

The full text of a lot of these articles would be hidden behind a paywall. So, yeah, very few would be reading anything beyond the abstract, which can be viewed for free.

If you are on a university campus / affiliated as a student or staff, you can view many of these articles. Otherwise, probably not.