Symptoms of Overtraining

[bamazav]

Originally Posted by BigJosh

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed in the way this OP is getting lectured with hard line opinions regarding overtraining.
While I understand there is debate over what overtraining is and how and when it is achieved and the general semantics of the matter, but the poster was simply asking what the symptoms are.
End of story. Not asking if his "routine was overtraining" or is he overtraining or anything of that matter.
Yet it kind of seems like he is being lectured about how he doesn't need to worry about it because he likely isn't overtraining. That seems a little hardlined and condescending to me.
Overtraining or over reaching or under recovering (what ever you care to call it) does exist and there are symptoms. Why the need to rant at this guy?

That's just my observation and opinion. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone. But I think MaB is better than this. Maybe I'm reading to much into this and I apologize if I am.

BigJosh, I respectfully disagree. I, for one, never mentioned the OP at all in my post. My intention was in no way to degrade the OP but to discuss the topic the OP raised. I stated that it was my opinion, which is all that it is, take it for what it is worth. I admit I did use the pronoun "you," but not in the sense of identifying the OP solely, but in a generic second person plural form. I guess I should have used my more natural Ya'll.

He opened the door for discussion. If all he wanted was a succinct answer like OR's, this thread would be done. If there was no need or desire to evoke a discussion of the topic of over training, I apologize and I ask everyone to please disregard my previous statements as the ramblings of crazy ole madman.

[BigJosh]

Originally Posted by bamazav

If you are just starting and worried about over training, give up and go home. .

He simply asked the symptoms of overtraining and this is the first line of what I feel is a condescending diatribe.
Because he asked a question to increase his knowledge you told him he just should give up now.


Further more, I didn't bother quoting, but you go on to say that the average gym goer cannot overtrain because they do not work out hard enough. Not only is this point condescending but it is a rather arrogant generalization of people who go to the gym. Pretty broad paint brush you are using here.


I guess I am your "average gym goer". And I can honestly sit here and say in the past I have experienced symptoms of overtraining, over reaching and/or under recovering (or whatever anyone wants to call it)


I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong, I am merely stating what it looks like from my perspective. If you do not agree that is ok. this is not a discussion where one side must win and one side must lose. You are a husband, father, and pastor and if you do not agree with my assessment I respect that because I am not anyone special or worthy of passing judgement.

[bamazav]

Originally Posted by BigJosh

He simply asked the symptoms of overtraining and this is the first line of what I feel is a condescending diatribe.
Because he asked a question to increase his knowledge you told him he just should give up now.


Further more, I didn't bother quoting, but you go on to say that the average gym goer cannot overtrain because they do not work out hard enough. Not only is this point condescending but it is a rather arrogant generalization of people who go to the gym. Pretty broad paint brush you are using here.


I guess I am your "average gym goer". And I can honestly sit here and say in the past I have experienced symptoms of overtraining, over reaching and/or under recovering (or whatever anyone wants to call it)


I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong, I am merely stating what it looks like from my perspective. If you do not agree that is ok. this is not a discussion where one side must win and one side must lose. You are a husband, father, and pastor and if you do not agree with my assessment I respect that because I am not anyone special or worthy of passing judgement.

Josh, while I can certainly see what you are saying, and as I said, "I respectfully disagree," one of the things that makes forums, text and emails a poor way to communicate is that the presence of written text is totally emotionless. The reader is left to himself to interpret emotion, intent and motivation of the writer based solely on the context. However, in a forum format such as this, context is often difficult to ascertain. "Am I responding to the post immediately above mine, two, three or four posts back? Am I running off into left field? Am I just trolling?" Context is not always that clear. English doesn't always help, as I sought to point out earlier. "You" can be a 2nd person singular, 2nd person plural or a 3rd person singular formal. Context will not always make that clear.

I am sorry if I offended in any way, that was not my intent. As I stated, I had no intention of talking down any individual. I did express my opinion and, as I said, it is just that, my opinion. I stand by it. My request is that we all not automatically jump to the conclusion that a post on this site that doesn't jive with our line of thought is a personal attack meant to tear someone down. I respect you and the OP, I may see things differently than you, him or most everyone else on the board, but you all are challenging me to think through what I think and believe on this subject and a host of others. I appreciate the differences, as they help me grow and I hope in some small way I can help others.

[BendtheBar]

I've heard the arguments that overtraining doesn't exist, but I've experienced CNS overtraining 3x. Just be careful to balance the bravado of naysayers with the experiences of others.

Granted, it's nearly impossible for me to achieve. Then again, I am not trying to train 3 hours a day. But I have experienced severe CNS fatigue on 3 occasions, each time following heavy squat max attempts.

In each of these 3 cases, the next time I squatted 135 felt impossible during warmups. I felt completely shut down, and further attempts to warmup were dangerous, to say the least.

I've also experienced acute cumulative fatigue which I can only call overtraining from a 4 month stint I did with volume training in 1988. My felt like it was run over by a train.

Currently I reach stages in my training where I know I am overreaching. Continuing to push at these stages is a dangerous game. Call it what you want, but I could move from overreaching to injury in no time. Injury would most certainly be a form of overtraining.

I have said it before and I will say it again, most times the comments against overtraining are more aimed at the common beginner-type fear that has invaded this industry, and not aimed at overreching and pushing too hard, which is something Jamie Lewis has done himself.

Each of us has to make adjustments so we stay healthy and train efficiently. Keep the pendulum in the center, and not too far off to one side. Overtraining is hard to achieve. With that said, it's not a license to train foolishly.

One thing I dislike about overtraining argument is the obsession with turning it into a black or white issue.

Train smart.

[BendtheBar]

I have to interject and say I didn't take Bama's comments on overtraining as being directed at the OP. Bama doesn't do business like that.

His greater point was a big one...there is too much worry. If you're training reasonably it's not something you will ever really need to worry about. Problems enter when you train unreasonably, don't listen to your body, don't eat properly, etc.

I respect both you guys and I don't want this to turn sour. We all know that if someone is training reasonably, which is hard to get beginners to do, that overtraining is not an issue. But, we also know that even if they are training reasonably, they are programmed to fear overtraining to such a degree that they over-worry about everything.

I think we all agree on these points. MAB exists to get people on reasonable, effective programs. This is hard to do, but once on these programs overtraining isn't generally anything anyone will ever need to worry about.

[bamazav]

BTB, maybe much of the confusion, even in this thread is with the definition of "overtraining." In the e-books being written by MAB maybe the development of a good working definition would be helpful.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by bamazav

BTB, maybe much of the confusion, even in this thread is with the definition of "overtraining." In the e-books being written by MAB maybe the development of a good working definition would be helpful.

I agree. I think most of the time we're debating definitions and degrees. It's such a broad, overused term that it's become somewhat paper thin, with a different meaning for everyone.

I also think we need to fairly analyze each area of the body that can be impacted by training (CNS, joints, muscles, etc.), and mention common programming issues that can push things too far.

[BigJosh]

I meant no disrespect and I apologize if there was some misinterpretation on my part. I know bama is a valued and respectful member. I meant nothing personal by my comments.
Sorry for derailing this thread.

[MVP]

The article I posted by Christian Thibadeau sums up what is widely accepted as the general definition amongst CNS overtraining.

I've said this before, but IMO, overtraining can mean different things.

When you run, you overload your cardiopulmonary system.

When you train, you overload your muscles.

While you can't overtrain a muscle, and it's difficult to overtrain your nervous system, what about the endocrine system? Doesn't hours of working out flood the endocrine system? Doesn't cortisol elevation make you catabolic and cortisol elevation often come from excessive exercise? Would that not be a definition of overtraining?

[TitanCT]

so much overthinking, too much reading, and not enough learning your body.

simple if youre doing a shit ton of working out and losing size or not making consisitent gains. its not working...try doing less.