Overtraining Caused By Volume

[dmaipa]

I recently had a discussion today with someone. We shared our lifting styles and he follows a much lower volume route than I do. My body responds more to higher volume. After sharing my program, I was told that I was overtraining big time and that I should probably back off a little or maybe a lot.

What is everyone's take on overtraining? An excuse? I think it's something to watch out for but nothing to lose sleep over. I train 4 days a week but I pretty much make sure each session is a busting ass one. I train close to failure, sometime to failure on couple sets here and there.

For example today I did shoulders and Tris, After I finished my planned shoulder exercises I felt like I could do more so I did. I wanted to make sure I exhausted them. Is that wrong?

Does volume cause overtraining? If your diet is in check and you are fueling and replenishing your body with nutrients around your workouts and getting rest, I think it'll take a lot more to overtrain.

GO!

[Abaddon]

Considering you're the pro BBer here, D, I'd be inclined to take your advice, not give it to you!

[dmaipa]

Im still learning tho. Ive done the low volume, moderate volume, high volume. I think when you put in frequency it puts a whole different twist on things though

[BendtheBar]

I did a 3 on 1 off for about 4-6 months when I was 19 and I was beat up pretty bad. With that said, some bodyparts of mine respond better to volume than others...primarily chest.

Was this overtraining? No. But my body was beat the heck up. I am not a fan of mixing volume with heavy weight for this reason. Some can take it, but I don't believe most can.

Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.

Some of the young guys have had a tendency to proclaim to me..."I did volume and you, old man, don't have a clue..."

I do have a clue. I lived it. If someone believes volume is good for training longevity, all I can say is that I wish them well. Every 40+ lifter I talk to wishes they had performed less volume when young. And I have heard this too many times to count.

So my opinion...overtraining the muscle via volume is hard to do. But it is a slippery slope.

Lastly, I hesitate to make blanket statements. Volume to me is 30-40 sets per workout, but might mean 20 for some. Volume can be relative. Flex magazine routinely recommends workouts with 30-40 sets.

[bamazav]

To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.

On a personal note, I would have a hard time seeing how you, D-man, could over train on a 4 day cycle, unless it was 4 consecutive days with excessively long sessions.

As Steve noted above, there are some problems that arise from high volume sessions. My observations have been that many who do a lot of volume see their form falter, yet gut it out. This is a prescription for injury.

[Abaddon]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.

So my opinion...overtraining the muscle via volume is hard to do. But it is a slippery slope.

Lastly, I hesitate to make blanket statements. Volume to me is 30-40 sets per workout, but might mean 20 for some. Volume can be relative. Flex magazine routinely recommends workouts with 30-40 sets.

I have the same propensity when it comes to training chest, as opposed to most other body parts too, Steve. And I agree with the points you make above.

Dan Macri and I were talking about the same thing (CNS development) as it related to overcoming sticking points in progression. He said it even simpler "Volume on a weight you're used to doesn't challenge your CNS - heavy ass weight does!"

Originally Posted by bamazav

To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.

On a personal note, I would have a hard time seeing how you, D-man, could over train on a 4 day cycle, unless it was 4 consecutive days with excessively long sessions.

As Steve noted above, there are some problems that arise from high volume sessions. My observations have been that many who do a lot of volume see their form falter, yet gut it out. This is a prescription for injury.

I'll have to jump in here, Bama, and say I disagree with you somewhat.

In my experience:
*I have never used more than 20-22 working sets per routine - and when I was just starting out, it was even less.
*I trained no more than 4 days per week for the first year.
*I ate a lot of steak.
And I made great gains (160 lbs - 187 lbs in a little over 12 months).
Pretty simple, I would have thought.

Yet I see (well, read about) kids every day who are now in the same position I was 11 years ago, and they're not making gains. This is, I believe, because they are victims of this high-volume culture; doing 30-40 sets, 5 days a week is foolhardy for a beginner and it never would have been recommended by the trainers at my first gym... I guess I must have lucked out there.

My point is that, as Steve says, ligament and tendon damage is the cost of over training, but so is diminished muscle gain generally. The -ahem!- hard gainer is often simply training his mass away.

And high volume and frequency is going to rob people of results, even if they are lucky enough to not suffer an injury. For instance I know Rich Knapp uses ridiculous volume on his arms, which would put me in a cast inside a month! He can do it, and so can other people, but it's not going to build muscle on a beginner IMO. At least, not at optimum rates.

[Shadowschmadow]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

I did a 3 on 1 off for about 4-6 months when I was 19 and I was beat up pretty bad. With that said, some bodyparts of mine respond better to volume than others...primarily chest.

Was this overtraining? No. But my body was beat the heck up. I am not a fan of mixing volume with heavy weight for this reason. Some can take it, but I don't believe most can.

Overtraining the muscle is hard to do, but overtraining the joints, connective tissue and CNS is much easier to do. Different systems, different capabilities. Sometimes connective tissues and ligaments simply need time to strengthen, and volume probably won't speed that process up...only time and strength will.

Good post Steve.

Originally Posted by bamazav

To paraphrase someone else... Over training is a bunch of hoooeee. Most claiming "over training" simply do not want to do the work.

I don't think its that most don't want to put in their due, but I believe that in most cases you can point out a particular reason as to why they may believe they are experiencing over-training symptoms, when in fact they are not. Simple fact of the matter; OTS includes far more than extended muscle soreness and/or strains, and I believe that these strains are often misinterpreted.

To say that over-training is more or less a myth would be an ignorant statement. Steve hit the nail on the head by stating that it is most certainly achievable, but harder than most would believe.

For the TS: Over-training can be achieved through workout volume for sure, but real OTS is mostly seen in those who do a good bit of volume with weights, loads of cardio and/or do not eat to match their activity level.

For those who are uneducated on the matter, its easy to misinterpret DOMS as OTS. But if you know the symptoms, and you're really doing enough to begin experiencing them, you can normally catch it early and put an end to it by backing off.

For your personal example, if you're recovering from your workouts appropriately, then you should be fine. When you begin noticing your fatigue/soreness, inconsistent strength, etc. from the prior training day carrying over to several other sessions, you need to back off or take a break. That doesn't mean its over-training, but if you keep hammering away you could stirr up some OTS or easily injure yourself.

[TitanCT]

theres no such thing as over training, only under eating? =0 )

[Aurik]

Short and simple answer: If you are getting bigger and stronger and sufficiently recovered by your next workout, you're not overtraining. If you're getting weaker or your joints start giving you fits, it's time to back off a bit.

[BendtheBar]

My personal view on large bodyparts is about 9-12 sets per in the context of a split. Sometimes up to 15. If you look at a split or fullbody this volume will be about the same.

Once you go beyond this volume it starts bloating workouts, pushing them generally more than 4 days per week.

My "young gun" comment I made above...I should have better explained. I have had debates with folks over volume, and after pages of debates found out that my definition of moderate volume was their definition of high volume. So we believe the amount of maximal volume to be the same, but we hadn't got down to brass tacks, so we thought we were miles apart.

9-12 sets per large bodypart plus 3-6 sets for minor bodyparts is around 99-132 sets per week. This is if you exclude lower back and obliques, but do hit forearms and traps.

This would be high volume for 4 days per week. I hope by explaining this I hope you can see my "upper volume" is probably the same as your definition of high volume.