For the sake of argument: Paul De Ocampo

[Abaddon]

While I never paid this man a cent, he was a great help and inspiration to me during my early days training.

He is 10 times Champion of Mr West Coast (Australia), has been a Mr Australia and Mr Philippines at least once.

He claims to be natural, and I've no reason to doubt him. But his stats seem to be quite at odds with reliable information I've been given by BTB regarding what a natural bodybuilder can hope to attain in this thread:
Mariusz Pudzianowski Strongman Training Workout
According to the info, Paul De Ocampo's maximum potential is:
"Height, 70 inches = 181.8 lean body mass potential. Competition weight = 193.4 pounds"

Yet, at 5foot 10inches, Paul claims his competition weight to be around 100kgs (220lbs) on 4-5% body fat!

Great genetics can play a part in a natural builder exceeding the predictions, but only by a pound or two. Not over 25!!

[Kyle Aaron]

By request. Pretty simple calculation.

Height = 5'10" = 1.78m
Fat-free mass index <=25 in a natural lifter source]

Maximum fat-free mass attainable = FFMI x height x height
Mass = 25 x 1.78 x 1.78 = 79kg

If he claims a competition bodyweight and bodyfat of 100kg @5%, he is claiming 95kg lean mass, 16kg more than possible according to the study.

Therefore, he is either exaggerating his weight by a significant amount, or he is likely not lifetime drug-free. As you say, individual frame size and so on may make this limit a few kgs either way, and there are always going to be outstanding individuals, but 16kg seems like enough to make us look more closely.

As I said in the other thread, if we can't admire or like any prominent athlete who takes performance-enhancing drugs, we won't be left with many. Imagine a bodybuilder of exactly Ocampo's height and frame size who came in at the natural limit of 79kg lean mass with another few kgs of bodyfat, say 83kg @5%. All other things being equal, he would quite simply lose to the larger guy. So he'd have an incentive to try to sneak some drugs through - or else not compete at all, just enjoying what is in everyday life a very remarkable physique.

We can't really get drugs out of other sports, because they do enhance performance, if you are stronger you are faster as well, etc. But bodybuilding need not be so. We needn't award points for sheer size, we could shift the emphasis to symmetry and balance, return to having athletic ability as part of it, etc. I think it's unlikely, though - we're just impressed by big guys. The competitions are funded by supplement companies and magazines, which are purchased by men who like the idea of being "big and ripped", smaller but more balanced and athletic physiques just wouldn't sell so much stuff. Everything follows the money, unfortunately.

[Abaddon]

Yeah. I'm impressed by big NATURAL guys, which puts me in a distinct minority, I'm noticing.
Thanks for your 2 cents.

[Kyle Aaron]

Just look at the banner that advertises this forum.



Natural? Seems unlikely. But they put out what sells.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron

Natural? Seems unlikely. But they put out what sells.

For anyone reading that's interested, that "they" is me.

Just for the record, I give back all the profits from the site, and then some to the community.

I'm not trying to sell anything.

I take money from my family's pocket to sponsor natural lifters. I spend my days profiling natural bodybuilders, interviewing natural bodybuilders, writing for a natural magazine, and promoting reasonable natural expectations in a world that thinks I'm a lunatic.

I go to natural shows and support naturals with my time, money, family time. I spend my family's money on supporting the natural community with my own camera, gas, cell phone, etc. I receive no compensation or reimbursement for this investment.

Not all the images on this site are 100% natural, as this site is open to discussion to natural and non-natural. I do not go out of my way to promote steroid use in any way, but we do allow open discussion.

The conversation on this site is always about reasonable expectations for naturals, training efficiently for naturals, and the different needs for natural and non-natural lifters.

I don't want to overblow the above comment but I would be a liar if I said it didn't hurt.

Truth is I make a very small wage and I joyfully try to walk the walk in this industry, where others blow smoke up the asses of young lifters with their e-books, supplement claims and comments that "they are natural."

I am not a perfect man by any means. I am a human, with my flaws.

But I want everyone to know that I do everything within my power to separate myself from the "theys". I don't get paid to run this site, I give money to run this site. I do so because I want a safe haven for lifters to come free from trolls, lies and false claims.

And I will continue to walk this path, sink or swim. I have no store. I have no e-book. I have no supplement company. I have no sales ledger. I DO take advertisers.

Ask any experienced member here, and you will find they have received my money, time and encouragement. I give everything I can and then some, and for no other reason than they are my friends, and I can and want to.

Many of the men on this site I have met in person, and I call them friends. I have trained with them, slept at their houses, shared meals with them, talked about their family and marriages, and did my best to give all that I can for them because it makes me happy.

I respect Kyle greatly, and don't want anyone to think this is directed at him. I just want everyone to know that the "they" who created that banner is me. There is no one else, and no company or great wizard behind the curtain. Every line of code and image on this site is my doing, for better or worse.

I have to edit and streamline content on the site in my free time, which is about one hour a week. I am working hard to do so, but the process is slow.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by Abaddon

Yet, at 5foot 10inches, Paul claims his competition weight to be around 100kgs (220lbs) on 4-5% body fat!

Great genetics can play a part in a natural builder exceeding the predictions, but only by a pound or two. Not over 25!!

Well, either he's lying about his weight or about using steroids.

I hate to be the one to pull that card out of the deck, but it's just like Skip LaCour. 95% of lifters take Skip's word that he is natural.

[dmaipa]

Here's my take on the matter..for the sake of arguement...there has been many threads on this matter on MAB and other sites ive been on about who's natural, who's not, who has a pass of doing AAS, and so on. IMO I don't really care what pictures are out there, and who's taking what and who's natural and whatevers.

THere are many out there, myself as well, who would look at pictures in magazines and want a body like that guy, or get my arms just as big as Phil Heath, or a crazy back like Ronnie Coleman (these are extreme examples). But, in all honesty the main person that you should be worrying about stats, weight, height, measurement, drug history or what not, is your damn self.

If a guy claims he is natural but doesn't look it, then who cares. Worry about what you want to attain for yourself and focus full heartedly on that.

[BendtheBar]

^ While we're on this subject, I will say that my only goal with these discussions is to present reasonable expectations for naturals. I am not here to slam anyone, or put them down for drug use. I just want naturals to understand that this issue has been studied, and reasonable expectations do exist.

What they do with data is up to them.

Determining Natural Bodybuilding Potential

[dmaipa]

dammnit i think i may be coming close to my full natural potential! hahah

[BendtheBar]

I haven't gained a pound in 10 years, but there's still hope.

I have to admit, I like some pro bodybuilders. Tom Platz was my idol growing up. There is so much of lifting that goes above and beyond just the roid-no roid side of the sport.

I love the sport, just like I love other sports. They all have drugs. I can't change that. I wish I could. But at the end of the day the inner boy inside me still admires the hard work of the athletes. That's what inspires me.