Heated debate over workouts

[BendtheBar]

I am talking merely from a bodybuilding/muscle building perspective here, because that is where this idea thrives...

Adaptation can be good. It takes 3-4 weeks or longer for my body to adapt to the specific demands of a training style/routine, and once adapted my progression of weight improves. I have run rest-pause systems and didn't get any strength gains until after week 4 - once my body adapted to specific demands. With a fullbody it took 6-8 weeks.

Once the body has adapted to specific demands of a program and it's lifts (like squats or whatever) you can finally get on to the business of making good progress. If you constantly switch programs you ARE forcing your body to adapt, but this adaptation to specific demands doesn't mean you are making gains.

I can walk uphill on Day 1 and get real sore. By day 15 my body is adapting to specific demands and I can start to focus on performance rather than deal with recovery and soreness. It is here that the real work begins, and the progression is made.

It is my opinion that this initial soreness in response to a shocking new approach is more of a survival mechanism than anything. Your body is saying, hey...whoa chill...what was that? I am not ready for that. Once you start doing it day in and day out, and the body sees that this is going to be a constant demand, does it not adapt itself to this demand and start allowing you to perform better?

So it is not the initial shock that creates changes, but rather a consistent shock over time that forces the body to grow strong, allowing for performance increase?

Because progression in some form is a cornerstone of strength and muscle, a program must be run long enough to allow the body to not only adapt to specific demands, but also for it to have time to increase performance. Changing every 8 to 12 weeks from DC to Wendler's to whatever might be fooling the body, but it is not a recipe for max performance, and max gains of muscle and strength.

You also have to factor in CNS adaptation, as well as the adaptation of connective tissue, joints, etc to specific demands. Once a body adapts it's CNS and connective tissue strength to a specific demand, will it not be safer and more productive to use this program/lift?

In my opinion the safest and most effective training style for non-advanced lifters is a program that uses basic, compound lifts and focuses on weekly progression rather than shock and awe.

Shock and awe is needed for steroid users. They play a different game and require receptor stimulation to maximize new growth. Natural lifters don't play this game. The best shock they can give the body is a +1 pound/rep increase after the body has safely adapted to the demands of a specific lift and are able to handle the challenge somewhat safely.

I am no expert on this subject, so mileage may vary...

You do not maximize performance during the adaptation process, rather when you have adapted and can do a task more efficiently, and with lower risk of injury.

[Trevor Ross]

Originally Posted by glwanabe

I don't have time to get into this all the way right now, BUT!!

MUSCLE CONFUSION IS BS!!

This man says you're wrong. There is some merit as for as changing workouts is concerned, but not in the early going.

[glwanabe]

Originally Posted by Trevor Ross

This man says you're wrong. There is some merit as for as changing workouts is concerned, but not in the early going.

This man did not utilize confusion principles. He used progression principles.

[glwanabe]

This man did not utilize confusion. He used progression.




Mind you, Vince was a bodybuilder, and pyrros and Ivan are Oly lifters, but the oly lifters have built large amounts of muscle as it is needed for their specific lifting requirements. The same can be done for purely bodybuiling pursuits as well.

[Trevor Ross]

Originally Posted by glwanabe

This man did not utilize confusion principles. He used progression principles.

Gironda used progression methods too (him being a genius and all), and so do I. Both methods work.

[glwanabe]

You cannot "Confuse" a muscle. A muscle does not have a brain. See Steves earlier post about muscle adaption. That pretty much covers it for me.

Vince Gironda was a very smart man and ahead of his time. However, I stand by my statement that, you cannot confuse a muscle.

Albert Einstein was a very smart man as well. He put forth the idea of the, "Ether" of the universe. We know today that this is not true.

Time marches on and not everything stands the test of time.

[Trevor Ross]

Originally Posted by glwanabe

You cannot "Confuse" a muscle. A muscle does not have a brain. See Steves earlier post about muscle adaption. That pretty much covers it for me.

Vince Gironda was a very smart man and ahead of his time. However, I stand by my statement that, you cannot confuse a muscle.

Albert Einstein was a very smart man as well. He put forth the idea of the, "Ether" of the universe. We know today that this is not true.

Time marches on and not everything stands the test of time.

I think the term muscle confusion was just primitive way of keeping the body guessing so you don't get in a rut because sometimes you need change for progression.

[flow]

To clear some "confusion" up here.

Adaption is a good thing. Thats what we want.

You have a goal be it MS or hypertrophie whatever.

You pick your programm with your goal and adjust the paramers to that.

After some time you will stall (the MAGIC 6 weeks) this is normally cause of fatigue which builds up during a cycle.

You delaod back off whatever, then start the cycle new.

After some of these loading and back off periods you notice that you stall-so you have to change the programm.

In the next step you don´t confuse the muscle- you have to increase your load to elict further adaption. So "change" your programm in the way that it gets more demanding.

Same process you load and deload.

After some cycles you will again stall-so you have to take a step higher regarding your demands.

Thats how it is. Progress gets slower over time cause you need more workload and more recovery from it and the programming complexer.

The diet takes part too. With each new step you have to adjust kcals. Cause with more demands you need more energy to fullfill them.

To speak practical. Lets say someone want to "bulk"(in a reasonable sense) and starts training. He is 70kg 10%BF and 180cm high

His first stage would would something like this:

1. Whole body 2-3xthe week: 2400 kcals each day
Squat
deads stiff
bench
chin up
Military press
crunch
All for 3x8-12 2 min rest

Lets say he loads and deloads as mentioned.
He probably gets to 78kg and 12%BF within a certain time period with this programm and nutrition intake

Then he will stall. He still wants to bulk. So he needs to take the next more demanding step in programming and perhaps event needs to increase the calories to compensate the demands and still build new tissue:

Whole body 2-3xthe week with perhaps 2800 kcals each day:

Programm A:
Squat
deads stiff
bench
chin up
Military press
crunch
All with 3-4x6-8 3 min rest

Programm B:
Squat
deads stiff
bench
chin up
Military press
crunch
All with 3x10-12 2 min rest

As u see the first session is more demanding then the older programm. The summed reps are quite equal (the volume) but done at more weight.6-8 reps instead of 8-12 and more rest to insure that.

The second session is the same as the older one. The demands should get stepwise harder,not like a punch in the face. You have to take some slaps bevore you get nailed by the fist.

The trainee again runs up some cycles, load and deload and will stall again.

Then he evaluates again his training goal and adapts programmign and nutrition to that.


That are the steps which should be followed in GENERAL when you programm and want to progress in that what you do.

and remember there are only 3 facotrs involved:

Load
Deload
Nutrition/Rest

Plan these 3 acdording to your goals and fitness status.
then you are on the road to YOUR goal.

FloW