chest dips instead of bench

[BendtheBar]

I wouldn't recommend BTN push presses. I would work at regular push presses or standard BTN presses, but I don't like the thought of abusing your shoulders with BTN pushes. I know some guys do them with the Bear Complex, but that is with light weight. A push press is a sloppier movement and I would rather see you build up some core pressing strength before moving to push presses.

[glwanabe]

There is a reason why I've suggested the moves that I have. Unlike Kman who may have read something, I've actually done this workout, and made it work. In fact I set a bench PR without actually benching for almost 2 years.
At that point my PR was at 240. I've since gone past that to 280+

I do not agree with heavy push presses for you at this time. In fact I don't advocate heavy BHN push stuff for most people. Front pressing is far safer to your RC. BHN presses should be done to about ear level, and the weight used should be kept under control.

About flyes. Bent arm flyes take a lot of stress off of the biceps. However, we want to work the biceps, so we need to use a lighter weight. You also need to work with straight arms. You can also incorporate static holds in the down position with this move. Working up to holding the weight for one minute. Then increase weight.

You also can do this move with your legs held straight out instead of on the floor. This puts a whole new level of stress on your core.

There are lots of moves for building upperbody strength utilizing movements that your probably not aware of. In fact for nearly a year I barely touched a barbell yet got much stronger, utilizing bodyweight moves, chins, dips, and rings.

[strkout35]

Originally Posted by glwanabe

There is a reason why I've suggested the moves that I have. Unlike Kman who may have read something, I've actually done this workout, and made it work. In fact I set a bench PR without actually benching for almost 2 years.
At that point my PR was at 240. I've since gone past that to 280+

I do not agree with heavy push presses for you at this time. In fact I don't advocate heavy BHN push stuff for most people. Front pressing is far safer to your RC. BHN presses should be done to about ear level, and the weight used should be kept under control.

About flyes. Bent arm flyes take a lot of stress off of the biceps. However, we want to work the biceps, so we need to use a lighter weight. You also need to work with straight arms. You can also incorporate static holds in the down position with this move. Working up to holding the weight for one minute. Then increase weight.

You also can do this move with your legs held straight out instead of on the floor. This puts a whole new level of stress on your core.

There are lots of moves for building upperbody strength utilizing movements that your probably not aware of. In fact for nearly a year I barely touched a barbell yet got much stronger, utilizing bodyweight moves, chins, dips, and rings.

ok i see what you guys are saying i'll stay away from them, but i don't really think flyes are a good idea for me now. I've read in alot of places that there's no need to do flyes till you hit 200 on the bench at least, up until that point your energy is better used on pressing movements. I won't do BTN push presses but I also think i shouldn't use flyes, if i'm way off on this by all means let me know...

so how about this

Seated Shoulder Press- 3x6-8
Dips- 3xfailure
CGBP-3x4-6

[kman025]

you guys kill all the fun

the leg drive of the BTN PP is supposed to do all the work "out of the hole" and then your shoulders/tri take over from there after out of the "danger zone".

if SO wants to do BTN PP's i see no reason he shouldnt be encouraged to try it. I was simply helping him set up what he wanted to do.

The exercise is definately a high risk/high reward lift. If SO didnt know this coming in, he deserves to get hurt (no hate). IMO sometimes you should let people try new things/new ideas to see what works for them, rather than persuading(sp) them against it to a safer route. To some degree SO must know this exercise could go wrong (i mentioned it earlier on even) so why not let him test the waters?

[strkout35]

Originally Posted by kman025

you guys kill all the fun

the leg drive of the BTN PP is supposed to do all the work "out of the hole" and then your shoulders/tri take over from there after out of the "danger zone".

if SO wants to do BTN PP's i see no reason he shouldnt be encouraged to try it. I was simply helping him set up what he wanted to do.

The exercise is definately a high risk/high reward lift. If SO didnt know this coming in, he deserves to get hurt (no hate). IMO sometimes you should let people try new things/new ideas to see what works for them, rather than persuading(sp) them against it to a safer route. To some degree SO must know this exercise could go wrong (i mentioned it earlier on even) so why not let him test the waters?

i understand it could go wrong but the question is what would yield better results at my stage in the game. I realize people like C&P and others advocating BTN push presses are very experienced lifters and now I see that it's probably not the most effective lift for me at this point in time.

I just looked up some push/pull/legs routines on exrx.net and i got put together this push workout:

Chest Dips: 3xfailure
Flat or Incline DB Press: 3x6-8
Shoulder Press: 3x6-8
CGBP: 3x4-6

what do we think

[kman025]

you're putting too much thought into it man.... just pic a few lifts and add weight each week and your good

[glwanabe]

you guys kill all the fun

Absolutely not. I have plenty of fun. You can't have fun when you can't lift.

the leg drive of the BTN PP is supposed to do all the work "out of the hole" and then your shoulders/tri take over from there after out of the "danger zone".

Or, you could use a weight that you can handle safely, and progress based on actual strength increase of the worked muscles. Your way involves your legs, EGO, and momentum to move the weight.

if SO wants to do BTN PP's i see no reason he shouldnt be encouraged to try it. I was simply helping him set up what he wanted to do.

Because there is a safer way to do it.

The exercise is definately a high risk/high reward lift. If SO didnt know this coming in, he deserves to get hurt (no hate). IMO sometimes you should let people try new things/new ideas to see what works for them, rather than persuading(sp) them against it to a safer route. To some degree SO must know this exercise could go wrong (i mentioned it earlier on even) so why not let him test the waters?

Sometimes, you should realize that while you may be infatuated with C&P, and a few other programs, that they are not really what most people should be doing.

Sometimes, you should think about the fact that some of the people on this board have been lifting for longer than you have been alive. Maybe they have walked the path, and have gained some insight into doing some of this stuff.

Maybe, just maybe, were talking from actual experience, and not just pulling stuff out of our butt because it looks cool, and strokes our ego.

It appears that your going to have to have a few injuries for some of this to sink in. Your 16 and in good shape, but whatever you do to your body now will manifest itself in some form when your older.

I was invinceable when I was your age as well. trust me, I'm paying for playing when I was younger.

I'm not hating on you Kman, but your mouth is talking about stuff your experience level hasn't processed yet.

[kman025]

Push Press is meant to use leg drive, therefore its not an ego lift.

There are two things that could happen, IMO, if SO used BTB PP. either he could 1) realize its a hard lift to learn and he'd drop it and never get hurt, or 2)he would love it, become a total beast, and make us all look like pussies, while enjoying himself in the gy (of course risking some injury).

Although i havent been lifting long, I have made a ****load of progress in a little time (strength wise). In the 6 months i've gotten much stronger. When i started i went for the whole 3x5 route, but after a while i had to see what worked best for me and what i enjoyed.

As i'm so into C&P, you are into a boring way of training IMHO (no disrespect). I think theres a happy medium SO could settle into.

Your experience doesnt necessarily make you right. What works for you, may not work for others, as what i say may not work for others.

In what way am i trying to stroke my ego by helping out SO????

I'm just babbleing(sp) on... my point is, doing less conventional training has helped me a **** load in this short time i've been training. we all want to get stronger, even if its not our main concern, and even for BB you need some basic strength level. I've made quicker progress than many throwing caution to (whatever the **** the expression is). There is no reason SO or anyone cant do the same.

Although i ask for advice, i also have a mind of my own. Just because one person says something, doesnt mean you have to abandon your desire for another thing. On the shoulders of SO, the lifter, you are the angel and i am the devil.... he can pick which he wants, or somewhere in the middle, but no matter what i want him to see both sides.

maybe it will require some injuries, but who the **** knows. maybe by that time my total will be rediculous and when i recover i'll still be beastly as ****.

look at all the strong ass guys in this world. almost all of them went through a period where they did stupid ****. in most cases they made great progress or learned a huge lesson.

you guys can have fun in the slow lane, ill be blowing by in the fast lane....(and possibly crashing).

btw, i know this was very jumbled and ****t-ily (new word) written.... i dont give a ****, i hope you can take my point from it....

no hate GL...

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by kman025

you guys can have fun in the slow lane, ill be blowing by in the fast lane....(and possibly crashing).

Kman you need to check yourself brother. If you think I'm in the slow lane you don't have a f*cking clue what you're talking about.

You are out of control. Consider this a warning.

[kman025]

sorry BTB