Can fat people have good conditioning?

[bamazav]

[quote=glwanabe;229319]

I don't so much see you as a Sith Lord, as I do the Black knight from Monty Python.

LOL,"It's just a flesh wound, I've ad worse" "come back here and I'll bite your leg off."

Originally Posted by GL

Thats not too far from the truth, as far as flying all over the place goes.

I'm back and forth between Atlanta, and Houston on a pretty much weekly basis.

I thought you had moved everyone to Hotlanta, didn't realize you were commuting.

[BendtheBar]

Cutting isn't all about cutting calories, by the way.

Well playing the Devil's advocate, if you ignore and just play guessing games the results will be hit and miss. For most people they are miss. Any precise goal must have a minimal level of precision and attention to detail.

The more precise your goal, the more precise you must be to reach that goal. If you want to get to 170 pounds and don't care about bodyfat or body composition, your diet can be much looser. If you want to be 170 pounds and 6-10% bodyfat, you're going to require a high degree of precision. There is no way of escaping this unless you are 17 with an uber metabolism.

Regarding low carb diets...it isn't a miracle approach. I use a Paleo diet for the most part and eat minimal carbs. I've gained 30 pounds this year in doing so because I haven't monitored calories.

[MVP]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Regarding low carb diets...it isn't a miracle approach. I use a Paleo diet for the most part and eat minimal carbs. I've gained 30 pounds this year in doing so because I haven't monitored calories.

Paleo isn't the same thing, while it IS low carb (no grains) you can still eat as much fruit as you want. Paleo was brought upon by the theory that cavemen ate healthier than we do.

Most people I know use it as a method of increasing their general health.

The fruits in Paleo are high in simple carbohydrates (sugars) which could account for the increase in insulin and therefore storage of fat with excess calories.

While you were still avoiding grains, you were still incorporating fast absorption carbs high GI carbs.

I'm talking about low carb diets that take you into the state of ketosis.

I'm not sure what guidelines you followed with Paleo, but I've eaten quite a few calories with keto and have still managed to drop some weight - 13lbs as of today.

I do admit I haven't counted calories other than protein intake, but I posted the diet I have been following a few days ago.

[Off Road]

I eat a fair amount of carbs and I'm down almost 15 lbs in the last couple of months. So I'm not sold on the whole carb and sugar thing myself. To me, total calories are king when trying to lose fat. Combining that with a good amount of exercise and it's a winning combination.

[MVP]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I eat a fair amount of carbs and I'm down almost 15 lbs in the last couple of months. So I'm not sold on the whole carb and sugar thing myself. To me, total calories are king when trying to lose fat. Combining that with a good amount of exercise and it's a winning combination.

Cutting calories does work with weight loss. That's not what I'm trying to say at all.

Take it from this:

The calorie theory was proven wrong by Adolf Fick, MD over 130 years ago...the calorie "theory" gives a measure of heat to proteins, fats and carbs. The problem with that is the human body is not a heat engine. We are chemical factories. That's why the obesity epidemic.

We have been told to eat a 40% carbohydrate diet since the food pyramid was first created. Oh, they changed it to 20% a couple of years ago because they realized they had been turning everyone diabetic. it was not widely publicized because it would open up a wave of lawsuits.

Fat can only be stored when insulin is produced. Insulin is only produced when consuming carbs. The definition of insulin is, its a fat storage hormone..

As to the fats containing the measure of 9 calories, who cares. It is physiologically impossible to store body fat from consuming natural fat. There is also no saturated fat in artery and is used for energy by the body.

Butter is used directly for energy. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pg. 843

Excess carbohydrate [more than 4-5 ounces] prevents the body from burning fat and increases stored body fat. Textbook of Medical Physiology, pgs 871, 936; Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach, pgs 24, 394

Glucose NOT body’s preferred energy source; fatty acids are. Basic Medical Biochemistry - A Clinical Approach , pgs: 29, 145, 203, 272, 357

Eating carbohydrate SLOWS METABOLISM; fat and protein digestion increase metabolism . Textbook of Medical Physiology, pg. 908

Couple this with the anabolic hormonal benefits that come with healthy fats and I'd say a high fat diet would be the better approach.

I didn't say just simply cutting calories wouldn't work, but with high fat diets you have more wiggle room with your intake. This compromised with the fact that fats feel you up much quicker and you remain with the feeling with the full stomach and a better mood stands out.

[bruteforce]

Fat can only be stored when insulin is produced. Insulin is only produced when consuming carbs. The definition of insulin is, its a fat storage hormone.

The bolded part is very, very wrong. Insulin is produced in response to blood sugar elevation. You don't need carbs for this, the liver can kick out amazing amount of glucose on its own. Try drinking 3 scoops of pure whey mixed with just water on an empty stomach and measure your blood glucose every 10 minutes. You'll see what I mean.Gluconeogenisis is why we can handle low carb diets. Only the brain has to have glucose as its only source of energy, but its a pretty big deal if it can't get it. Fortunately the liver can step in and help.

[Off Road]

I am a proponent of simplicity. Simple things are easier to understand and stick with for long periods of time. Simple workouts are effective and easy to manipulate towards your goals. Simple diets are are also easier to stick with and manipulate towards your goals. Therefore, I leave the science to the guys that want to be very smart and I leave the complexity to the guys stepping on stage. I tend to listen to experts that take a middle-of-the-road approach. Towards that end I give you these quotes from an expert that actually walks-the-walk...

This post is not directed at MVP, but simply to show another side to the low carb dieting.

"Remember, two of the most beneficial effects of carb intake (and the resultant insulin spike) is that it shuttles glucose and amino acids into muscle tissue and blunts the effects of cortisol, both important considerations for natural lifters."

"If carbs are restricted too severely or for too long, the bodybuilder flattens out and loses muscle. In that same instance they also notice a point in which their metabolism often just stops responding."

"As mentioned earlier, carbs blunt cortisol. Insulin (released in response to carb intake) and cortisol tend to counteract the effect of one another, with insulin acting as a nutrient storage hormone and cortisol (along with glucagon) working to release nutrients in response to the body’s energetic needs."

"While ketogenic diets work well with members of the general public trying to get in shape as quickly as possible (such as the “28-Day Wedding Diet”), they tend to be a bit hit-or miss with bodybuilders. Some lifters do okay with them but most lose too much muscle, come in flat and find that they just cannot train the way they need to."

Shelby Starnes

[TitanCT]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I am a proponent of simplicity. Simple things are easier to understand and stick with for long periods of time. Simple workouts are effective and easy to manipulate towards your goals. Simple diets are are also easier to stick with and manipulate towards your goals. Therefore, I leave the science to the guys that want to be very smart and I leave the complexity to the guys stepping on stage. I tend to listen to experts that take a middle-of-the-road approach. Towards that end I give you these quotes from an expert that actually walks-the-walk...

"Remember, two of the most beneficial effects of carb intake (and the resultant insulin spike) is that it shuttles glucose and amino acids into muscle tissue and blunts the effects of cortisol, both important considerations for natural lifters."

"If carbs are restricted too severely or for too long, the bodybuilder flattens out and loses muscle. In that same instance they also notice a point in which their metabolism often just stops responding."

"As mentioned earlier, carbs blunt cortisol. Insulin (released in response to carb intake) and cortisol tend to counteract the effect of one another, with insulin acting as a nutrient storage hormone and cortisol (along with glucagon) working to release nutrients in response to the body’s energetic needs."

"While ketogenic diets work well with members of the general public trying to get in shape as quickly as possible (such as the “28-Day Wedding Diet”), they tend to be a bit hit-or miss with bodybuilders. Some lifters do okay with them but most lose too much muscle, come in flat and find that they just cannot train the way they need to."

Shelby Starnes

OOOO nice quote OR. Shelby is the man with nutrition!!

[MVP]

Originally Posted by Off Road

I am a proponent of simplicity. Simple things are easier to understand and stick with for long periods of time. Simple workouts are effective and easy to manipulate towards your goals. Simple diets are are also easier to stick with and manipulate towards your goals. Therefore, I leave the science to the guys that want to be very smart and I leave the complexity to the guys stepping on stage. I tend to listen to experts that take a middle-of-the-road approach. Towards that end I give you these quotes from an expert that actually walks-the-walk...

This post is not directed at MVP, but simply to show another side to the low carb dieting.

"Remember, two of the most beneficial effects of carb intake (and the resultant insulin spike) is that it shuttles glucose and amino acids into muscle tissue and blunts the effects of cortisol, both important considerations for natural lifters."

"If carbs are restricted too severely or for too long, the bodybuilder flattens out and loses muscle. In that same instance they also notice a point in which their metabolism often just stops responding."

"As mentioned earlier, carbs blunt cortisol. Insulin (released in response to carb intake) and cortisol tend to counteract the effect of one another, with insulin acting as a nutrient storage hormone and cortisol (along with glucagon) working to release nutrients in response to the body’s energetic needs."

"While ketogenic diets work well with members of the general public trying to get in shape as quickly as possible (such as the “28-Day Wedding Diet”), they tend to be a bit hit-or miss with bodybuilders. Some lifters do okay with them but most lose too much muscle, come in flat and find that they just cannot train the way they need to."

Shelby Starnes

You are right in your post, but that is also referring mainly to the Atkins diet.

The reason the bodybuilder would lose muscles and flatten out, is lack of glycogen at the site.

During resistance training, we use our anaerobic glycosis energy system.

Anaerobic means without oxygen, so ATP is produced outside of the mitochondria.

Anaerobic glycosis can only use glucose/glycogen. If carbs are not present, then our anerobic energy system would not be as efficient. Our bodies would begin to breakdown protein to use as glucose.

Ketogenic diets require carbs either

-pre and post workout (TKD)
-carb loading (CKD)

The Atkins diet is mainly what that is in reference to.

The bolded part is very, very wrong. Insulin is produced in response to blood sugar elevation. You don't need carbs for this, the liver can kick out amazing amount of glucose on its own. Try drinking 3 scoops of pure whey mixed with just water on an empty stomach and measure your blood glucose every 10 minutes. You'll see what I mean.Gluconeogenisis is why we can handle low carb diets. Only the brain has to have glucose as its only source of energy, but its a pretty big deal if it can't get it. Fortunately the liver can step in and help.

I made reference to what you just said in my response to Chillen.

Protein can be converted to glucose. Carbs are converted to glucose.

When protein is converted to glucose, it generates ammonia. Ammonia is very toxic.

Not to mention excretion of ammonia during high protein turnover often results in the body not being properly hydrated.

The author of that post was making the comment in regards to glucose, I'm sure of.

That's why ketogenic diets are more fat than protein. You want fat to be the energy source and not protein. Protein being used as glucose can be dangerous.

Lets also keep in mind most people that take whey protein do so with milk, which contains sugars/simple carbohydrates that could assist in the spike of insulin.

[TitanCT]

Originally Posted by MVP

You are right in your post, but that is also referring mainly to the Atkins diet.

The reason the bodybuilder would lose muscles and flatten out, is lack of glycogen at the site.

During resistance training, we use our anaerobic glycosis energy system.

Anaerobic means without oxygen, so ATP is produced outside of the mitochondria.

Anaerobic glycosis can only use glucose/glycogen. If carbs are not present, then our anerobic energy system would not be as efficient. Our bodies would begin to breakdown protein to use as glucose.

Ketogenic diets require carbs either

-pre and post workout (TKD)
-carb loading (CKD)

The Atkins diet is mainly what that is in reference to.



I made reference to what you just said in my response to Chillen.

Protein can be converted to glucose. Carbs are converted to glucose.

When protein is converted to glucose, it generates ammonia. Ammonia is very toxic.

Not to mention excretion of ammonia during high protein turnover often results in the body not being properly hydrated.

The author of that post was making the comment in regards to glucose, I'm sure of.

That's why ketogenic diets are more fat than protein. You want fat to be the energy source and not protein. Protein being used as glucose can be dangerous.

Lets also keep in mind most people that take whey protein do so with milk, which contains sugars/simple carbohydrates that could assist in the spike of insulin.

uhm no Shelby is talking about Keto. He is a bodybuilder and one of the most knowledgeable people with nutrition, period.
BTW, Atkins is pretty much the same thing as Keto. high fats and proteins, low or no carbs....etc. etc.

FYI. the first 10lbs or so of weight loss in keto, is water. so dont get all excited. But, hey, go ahead and suffer, I'll carb cycle, keep my sanity, cut faster, hold more muscle mass, and be over here smiling while you keep arguing over nutrition and nutrition related questions you should already know about, since you're certified. =0 )