Time's Person of the Year: The Protester

[Goat]

Originally Posted by Beastmaster

You are quoting a comedian as facts? Plus its on Fox fake news so......

The writer had nothing to do with the linked PDF (New York City Independent Budget Office )

Contempt prior to investigation(you didn't even read the story) will ensure that you will remain ignorant.

[Goat]

And so, my fellow Americans: Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: Ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.
John F. Kennedy quotes

[Goat]

If an American is to amount to anything he must rely upon himself, and not upon the State; he must take pride in his own work, instead of sitting idle to envy the luck of others. He must face life with resolute courage, win victory if he can, and accept defeat if he must, without seeking to place on his fellow man a responsibility which is not theirs.

Theodore Roosevelt quotes

[Goat]

I was born in Europe... and I've traveled all over the world. I can tell you that there is no place, no country, that is more compassionate, more generous, more accepting, and more welcoming than the United States of America.
Arnold Schwarzenegger

[Goat]

In this country, it doesn't make any difference where you were born. It doesn't make any difference who your parents were. It doesn't make any difference if, like me, you couldn't even speak English until you were in your twenties.
Arnold Schwarzenegger

[Tannhauser]

Originally Posted by Goat

When I was young, we were taught these principles. Not now. when I question the young about the Founding Fathers, they are ignorant.

Yes, well I can relate to that. Not to the Founding Fathers, but to the equivalents in the UK. It's not the schools (at least over here): there's a limit to how much you can fit into a school curriculum. There's just very little learning outside of school, at least in many cases, and even less interest.

I am all for charity, but to force upon hard working responsible people is wrong.

But the problem is that if you don't force it, and rely on spontaneous giving, how many would suffer? In an increasingly materialistic world, how many would sacrifice a slightly bigger car or a nicer model of fridge to help people in desperate circumstances? I think there would be a diffusion of responsibility, where everyone relies on his neighbour to do it.

Then there's the problem of fickleness. Charities are in a kind of Darwinian competition. At the moment, 'Help for Heroes' in the UK is worth over £100 million, and while it's an incredibly worthwhile cause, there are others that have seen their coffers emptied as the fashion has switched over to them.

[Goat]

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

But the problem is that if you don't force it, and rely on spontaneous giving, how many would suffer? In an increasingly materialistic world, how many would sacrifice a slightly bigger car or a nicer model of fridge to help people in desperate circumstances? I think there would be a diffusion of responsibility, where everyone relies on his neighbour to do it

And how many in desperate circumstances will pick fruit to feed themselves, In the US none. Instead they complain that they are not provided for. I see it every day in my industry (landscape) the jobless scoff at the shovel and the wages that come with it. They would rather complain that I am making money.

If anything we over value what people are worth in the states. I often work alone due to the lack of work ethic I see in this up and coming generation, I certainly do not want to give to these lazy sluggards.

The way I see things they need to change, not me.

[Tannhauser]

Originally Posted by Goat

And how many in desperate circumstances will pick fruit to feed themselves, In the US none. Instead they complain that they are not provided for. I see it every day in my industry (landscape) the jobless scoff at the shovel and the wages that come with it. They would rather complain that I am making money.

If anything we over value what people are worth in the states. I often work alone due to the lack of work ethic I see in this up and coming generation, I certainly do not want to give to these lazy sluggards.

The way I see things they need to change, not me.

Well, I'm not in the US, so for all I know you're observations about the jobless could well be 100% accurate. However, the jobless in the UK face the same accusations, especially from sections of the right-wing press.

The truth, over here at least, is more complex. Certainly a proportion of jobless are shirkers - they are not interested in work and don't see why they should. But to write everyone in that situation off would be incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to work, but the gutting of the traditional low-income jobs means that there isn't anything viable for them.

Are you sure that you're not stereotyping a huge and pretty diverse group of people (the jobless) on the basis of your own experience of one sector?

[Tannhauser]

Originally Posted by Goat

In this country, it doesn't make any difference where you were born. It doesn't make any difference who your parents were. It doesn't make any difference if, like me, you couldn't even speak English until you were in your twenties.
Arnold Schwarzenegger

That's the American dream in one sentence, but again, the OECD data shows that it's less true in US and UK than in plenty of other places. Statistically, he would have stood a better chance of sucess in France or Norway or Canada. But no one wants to hear that, because it flies in the face of this pervasive rosy national myth.

Actually, it does matter who your parents are, by and large. It's a key determinant of your success. It's not simply a matter of how much effort you put in - though of course that's a factor. And if Arnold had been 4'11", we wouldn't be listening to him at all.

Every person who has successfully pulled himself up by his bootstraps looks at his neighbour and asks 'why didn't you do it, if I could?' It's human nature to take credit for our own successes.

[Goat]

Originally Posted by Tannhauser

Every person who has successfully pulled himself up by his bootstraps looks at his neighbour and asks 'why didn't you do it, if I could?' It's human nature to take credit for our own successes.

And rightfully so. I did. I chose to screw around in my late teens and early twenty's. On the brink of homelessness I joined the Army, became a man.

There are now so many social programs in the US, its freekin mind boggling. If a person wants the help it is already there.

I earn what I have, I'll do what I can to keep as much of it that I can, thank you very much.

I guess as I look at some of these ultra rich and think what a bunch of assholes, the poor can do the same with me.