NEW ROUTINE!! Please Advise

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by Abaddon

I am happy to reduce the volume of some exercises and increase the volume of others.

Good. More volume on the stuff that matters, is what I'm getting at.

Spart's been following a 4 way power split I've used with myself and a few other guys. He's on week 4-5 and continually making progress, he's just beaten his old Bench record quite comfortably and his form is feeling more secure on Deadlifts. The fact that he's progressing with such a high level of volume will allow him to *peak* his strength all the better. The idea, at least at the beginning, is to do a hell of a lot of volume on the main lifts. That gets you stronger, quickly and comfortable with the exercises.

EDIT - This is something I see a lot throughout with beginners that come through the 'strength' route. A complete lack of volume in the build up phases. They will typically have decent deadiifts, medicore squats but poor pressing and that pretty much stays the same untill they learn how to put the volume in. For all the good that McRobert/Hardgainer/HIT and whatever else did they did a complete disservice by preaching abbreviated routines right from the off to beginners.

When I see routines doing 1 top set of Deadlifts once a week, 1 top set of Benches I can't see how that is going to work long-term, it's soft training to me. You will probably see some minor improvement as your body peaks to show it's strength with such low volume but you'll get stuck fast.

You need to be putting the time in on the basics to get the results you want. Like I said at least 45 minutes of a 90 minute session should be devoted purely to doing set after set of the basic lifts. To that end, there needs to be much more space in your routine for a considerable amount of volume on the lifts you want to improve on.

I'm not angry while typing this, but you asked a question and I've followed your log long enough to care about your progress. Within the years you've been lifting and the bodyweight that you are I'd expect your ceiling of strength to be much higher but you're slowing yourself down with these routines.

[LtL]

Ab's I agree with Fazc: too much little stuff and not enough big. 4 sets of triceps pushdowns? Why not close grip bench or another compound movement? Get strong all over but make sure it's relevant to your end goal of SM.

LtL

[Abaddon]

Thanks to Steve, I'm just going to post this so I have something I (and others) can alter as we go

ME Lower
Deadlifts 5 sets
Front Box Squats 4 sets
Hamstring Curls 3 sets
Shrugs 3 sets
Static Holds 3 sets

Dynamic Press + Arms
One arm snatch 2 sets
Overhead press 4 sets
Bench variation 4 sets
DB curls 4 sets
Tricep pushdowns 4 sets

Dynamic Pull
Deadlifts 4 sets (light)
Seated row 4 sets
One arm rows 3 sets
Lateral pull downs 4 sets
Face pulls 4 sets

Originally Posted by Fazc

The idea, at least at the beginning, is to do a hell of a lot of volume on the main lifts. That gets you stronger, quickly and comfortable with the exercises.

EDIT - This is something I see a lot throughout with beginners that come through the 'strength' route. A complete lack of volume in the build up phases. They will typically have decent deadiifts, medicore squats but poor pressing and that pretty much stays the same untill they learn how to put the volume in. For all the good that McRobert/Hardgainer/HIT and whatever else did they did a complete disservice by preaching abbreviated routines right from the off to beginners.

You need to be putting the time in on the basics to get the results you want. Like I said at least 45 minutes of a 90 minute session should be devoted purely to doing set after set of the basic lifts. To that end, there needs to be much more space in your routine for a considerable amount of volume on the lifts you want to improve on.

I'm not angry while typing this, but you asked a question and I've followed your log long enough to care about your progress. Within the years you've been lifting and the bodyweight that you are I'd expect your ceiling of strength to be much higher but you're slowing yourself down with these routines.

Originally Posted by LtL

Ab's I agree with Fazc: too much little stuff and not enough big. 4 sets of triceps pushdowns? Why not close grip bench or another compound movement? Get strong all over but make sure it's relevant to your end goal of SM.
LtL

Ok, ok I get the idea guys.
I discovered a little while ago that pretty much all the benching I do at home is some version of CGBP because my bench is a POS; the uprights are right where my hands should be.

But if you think benching multiple times per week - in addition to deadlifting and squatting - is good then I'm all for that. Please keep going with the ideas guys.

[BendtheBar]

To piggyback on what Fazc said, one of the real keys to increasing my pressing strength was volume. I did a truckload of overhead and bench pressing volume as a beginner and intermediate.

When I see someone who is struggling with bench my first thought is often...more volume. Odds are they are not doing much. For example, I could never make great progress on a Wendler's 531 bench or OHP as a beginner or early intermediate. I would need to add in more volume as assistance.

[Abaddon]

This sounds like I actually need to reprise my old chest and shoulders template... something like 12 sets of just bench press (3 variations) and I was even doing flys at the end, originally.

So this brings to light another mainstay of my training style: am I wrong in thinking 20 total working sets is a good thing?

I've never trained for more that 70-75 minutes, even when I was an amateur BBer 10 years ago.

What about the effect rising cortisol levels have? I understand that a 90 minute routine isn't favourable for this reason. But that could be more well-worn hokum I've bought into...

And to clarify volume; more sets? More reps? More variations of the lift, or more of the same? Could you give me an outline?

[Fazc]

Originally Posted by Abaddon

But if you think benching multiple times per week - in addition to deadlifting and squatting - I'm all for that. Please keep going with the ideas guys.

Either that or just putting in more volume. When you say '5 sets' you know that's not really 5 sets, that's 1 top set and 4 warm ups! When I'm writing 5 sets down here I mean 5 work sets of the same weight. Warm ups are not counted.

For Press day, say on Monday:

Standing Press, could use the log - 5 singles followed by 5 sets of 5
Cable Row - 5 sets of 5
Close Grip Bench - 5 sets of 5
Cable Shrugs - 5 x 12

Typically if someone wants to get stronger on the Deadlift, I have them Deadlifting a whole lot. For you this might mean this on Tuesday.

Snatch - 5 singles/doubles, gets you warmed up for the Deads
Deadlift - 5 singles
Partial Deadlifts - 5 sets of 5
Front Squat - 5 sets of 5
Heavy Abs - 5 sets of 5

That's a Deadlift workout. If you want to back down the weight and do some rows after that, feel free. But if you work that hard enough, your grip, your hamstrings, upper back and everything will be done. What else could you possible do on that day that wouldn't already be covered?

Then perhaps on Thursday you could do some more Benching.

Bench Press - 5 singles followed by 5 sets of 5 back offs
Cable Rows - 5 sets of 5
Incline or Close Grip - 5 sets of 5
Cable Shrugs (rearward shrugs, they are awesome) - 5 sets of 5

Then go ahead and do your events on Saturday.

Something like that, is much more like it. The basics are emphasised, the accessory work gets done when you have the energy but it's not the focus. Get the volume in.

[Abaddon]

ME Lower
Deadlifts 8 sets
Front Box Squats 6 sets
Hamstring Curls 3 sets
Shrugs 3 sets
Static Holds 2 sets

Dynamic Press + Arms
One arm snatch 2 sets
Overhead press 7 sets
Bench variation 7 sets
DB curls 3 sets
CGBP 3 sets

Dynamic Pull
Deadlifts 8 sets (light)
Seated row 4 sets
One arm DB rows 4 sets
Lateral pull downs 3 sets
Face pulls 3 sets

How's this ^ for a 1st draft? I've increased the total working sets for each routine to 22, and I've dropped sets in the small stuff and increased those of the heavy compounds.

[Abaddon]

well this died in the ass.

[BendtheBar]

It's not dead. Be patient please. We want to help.

[kitarpyar]

Interesting discussion here. How much of weekly volume would you recommend for pressing moves (OHP and bench), especially for relative novices? And what sort of %ages to go along with it?

Even if the goal is 1RM, do you see benefits in higher rep sets, just to grease the groove, so to speak? Or turn it around to larger number of sets with lower reps?