Just a random thought I was having..

[MC]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

I personally don't consider a 5'10" 180 pound LBM body (weight without fat) to be limiting as I rarely (more like hardly ever, except for Doug Miller) see natural pros come close to it, but so it goes...

That's MASSIVE. Another perspective problem is people looking at pictures and not people. Anyone can look massive in a pic and not look that big in person. It's hard to look small in a picture when you are massive.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Off Road

Excellent point. I especially hate it when the article is written BY a natural FOR other naturals, and then it's littered with pictures of drugged bodybuilders.

When I tell newer lifters that the average 5'10" male should end up around 200 lbs in lean condition with 16" arms...they get frustrated because they think they will end up looking like the pros.

Another hard pill to swallow is the strength standards for the average natural guys. I tell them that they should be able to bench 300, squat 400, and deadlift 500 after several years of hard effort. But their views are skewed by drugged lifters, guys that post numbers but use gear, and internet-inflated lift numbers.

BTW, I didn't come up with those numbers, those are the numbers from McRoberts' books. But they seem pretty realistic when compared to my own progress and the progress of other naturals that I have followed.

I totally disagree with your 500 pounds after years of training comment. This is indeed an underestimated statement for some people, A lot more than that is attainable. I never touched a weight in my life until January 2010, that same year in October I proceeded to pull a 575 raw natural lift in a tested event...
I do not consider myself above average by any means.

I understand that you intended that to just be a basic semi realistic offering however in some aspects i'd consider that way to conservative. I am benching and squatting over the given numbers in that one year time period as well.

[Off Road]

Yes, and I know guys that were able to bench 350 lbs the very first time they entered a gym. I also know guys that have struggled for years and still can't squat 300. Some guys squat more than they deadlift and others pull more than they squat. I think the numbers that Stuart gave are just general guidelines and everyboy is different.

[BendtheBar]

McRobert is speaking more towards recreational lifters, giving them a reasonable goal. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe McRobert's is speaking to the guys that can easily gain strength or muscle; his audience is the lifters who have fits making any progress.

A 1200 pound total for an average 200 pound man who has a hard time with strength and muscle gains is a pretty impressive raw total. 100% Raw, which is a natural federation, lists master strength for the 198 class at 1354 pounds.

http://www.rawpowerlifting.com/pdf/R...nStandards.pdf

[Off Road]

Correct. The fact that Marc was able to surpass those goals in his first year shows that he has aptitude towards gaining strength quickly. That's really cool, but not everybody is so lucky. It took me a good three years of hard lifting to reach those goals. Some guys may never reach them.

[gaspers04]

Originally Posted by Marc

Just having a few random thoughts about the industry and it's diversity of people. The biggest thing that I am truly stumped about is why 90% of the people out there make such a HUGE ordeal about being natural? I know people who are and people who arent, and both are equally respectable. To me it's like ASA vs Nascar. Two totally different classes. Am I the only one that doesnt care what people want to do? I just thought about how much ridicule I read and it's kind of rediculous. I can appreciate both sides. It's no different than the choice to run pump gas in your drag car or tune it for C16. I mean unless youre using it to infringe on rules, who really cares? Just a thought.

If this is too touchy of a subject, let me know. It's something that is a fact of the sport however, just curious on other's viewpoints.

Pretty much my views, I could care less either way. Both sides train hard and dedicate their lives to training and diet. I believe that a large majority of us have contemplated use at some time.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by gaspers04

I believe that a large majority of us have contemplated use at some time.

I would say anyone that's serious has thought about AAS. To be tempted is human. There might be some exclusions, but I think if you're training hard the thought is always in the back of your mind.

What if?

[bwys61]

The thought is always there. However, it does feel good to compete with and even surpass someone is choosing to do so.

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

I would say anyone that's serious has thought about AAS. To be tempted is human. There might be some exclusions, but I think if you're training hard the thought is always in the back of your mind.

What if?

[gaspers04]

True

[Wlfdg]

Steroids
They work
They're illegal. The medical evidence is pretty conclusive that they're not really dangerous. They aren't healthy if you are. If you aren't they can be magic.

Tobacco and alcohol just plain kill people. People who use those substances kill people, intentionally or not. Unbelieveable numbers of people????????????
They're legal????????????