Let me explain why.

[Rich Knapp]

Here is why I don't believe in charts and studies. This is just for me and why, just so you all understand why I am the way I am.
If I put stock in statistics and studies:

1. I would have been in a wheelchair 10 years ago.
   
2. I would not be a Bodybuilder.
   Doctors told me the nerve damage in my left arm would never handle lifting and they pulled me of lifting.
3. I would not lift anything over 25 lbs.
   Doctors told me if I do theres a 85% chance my right arm will snap in half from the bone cyst.
   
4. If I lived by charts, statistics and studies I'd be basically a vegetable with everything I have wrong and the statistics on them, and it would be the first step to FAILURE.

They tell me I can only get a certain size naturally I'll prove them wrong. This attitude is what keeps me going. I am a stubborn ass FREAK for real.

[big_swede]

Im with you, statistics and studies are for losers that fears hard work.

Great post bro!

[BendtheBar]

They tell me I can only get a certain size naturally I'll prove them wrong.

I love you like a brother Rich, but I believe in Casey Butt's chart 150%.

I know people can overcome, I've seen it. I respect that, and am not trying to take away from that.

But I can't put muscle building in that same pot. I have read Casey's study. It's on 300 champions from the last 60 years. It's rock solid.

[Rich Knapp]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

I love you like a brother Rich, but I believe in Casey Butt's chart 150%.

Steve your like a big little brother to me to and just as brother have diffrent idea's, here we go. lol
Give big little bro another 2 years and we will shave 50% off that.
I'll give ya the 100%

OR I'll snap my arm in half working on it. THEN I will give you 200%.

[Kyle Aaron]

As Casey Butt said, for a decade now people have been writing to him to say that they will break those limits. Nobody has yet written to him to say that they have broken those limits.

Rich, in regards to recovery from injury or illness, I dated a doctor once and what she told me was that "these are based on the typical person, who basically gives up." People with strong willpower are going to achieve much more than someone with ordinary or weak willpower.

I see this all the time with my PT clients. For example, the other day I trained two women separately. Both did rack pulls. GM was 5'0" and 100lbs, ES was 5'9" and 170lbs. Both had roughly the same training background, lots of aerobics, ES obviously had greater lean mass and thus capacity to lift. GM did a 110lb rack pull, ES did a 90lb rack pull with ease and then failed on 110lbs.

The difference was mostly in the mind.
GM says, "Kyle when you put weight on the bar, I know it's because you believe I can lift it, so I do it."
ES says, "I told you before I tried, I can't lift it."

Obviously when it comes to lifting like 10lbs there's no psychology to it, people just do it. And if I'd put 1,000lbs on the rack, of course neither of them would have lifted it. But when a person reaches the edge of their strength, whether they make or fail it is mental. Some people fail in the mind before they ever reach the platform, others succeed before they ever reach it.

The way we respond to health issues is much the same. Obviously if you are shot twenty times or something you'll just die, and if someone cuts your arm off it's not growing back. But there are lots of other situations where the mind matters. Just look at old couples, one dies and the other one dies within 6 months. They just gave up.

Certain things will be easy no matter what, some things will be impossible no matter what. There's a heap of stuff in the middle where attitude is everything. Those are three different things. Whether you could lift more than 25lbs was obviously mental. Whether you can bust through the limits identified by Butt is not.

Most of us are so far from those limits to lean mass that I don't consider them limits, but goals.

[big_swede]

To re-define my post a bit, i was refering to studies and statistics in general, and didnt mean to disregard anything written by people with experience and know-how. Meaning that a lot of people read, interprets the data and gets the impression that something is impossible to achieve, therefore they wont even try. Its like kyle said in the post above, its very mental - to win or lose, and lots of "health studies" and the reading of them may discourage people to try for themselves.

[Kyle Aaron]

I'm not sure studies persuade people to do or not do anything. I think people come to activities or situations with an attitude already decided. What the psychologists tell us is that while events in our lives definitely affect us, if we wait a couple of years then the effect goes away. If a person was miserable or happy one day, then the next day was crippled in a car accident or won the lottery, obviously that day they are miserable or happy as you'd expect - but two years later they're back to being as miserable or happy as they were before the event.

People just have certain natures, certain personalities which are as individual as their faces, and even harder to change. I believe it's possible to develop certain aspects of your personality, to become more callous or more compassionate, more or less determined, and so on. But few try.

I think Rich was very probably a very determined and optimistic person before his physical issues, as well as after.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by big_swede

To re-define my post a bit, i was refering to studies and statistics in general, and didnt mean to disregard anything written by people with experience and know-how. Meaning that a lot of people read, interprets the data and gets the impression that something is impossible to achieve, therefore they wont even try. Its like kyle said in the post above, its very mental - to win or lose, and lots of "health studies" and the reading of them may discourage people to try for themselves.

I'm not a big study guy in the least. The last thing I want to hear about is some untrained individual doing leg extensions and telling us that TUT for 7.324 seconds after drinking 32.199 grams of protein is the magic key.

I don't care about any of that nonsense.

My only obsession with natural muscular potential stems from all the nonsense and lies in this industry. All I want is to give naturals reasonable expectations, and not to lie to them.

Heck, I started small-boned (6.4 wrist), 145-150 pounds and a weak hardgainer. If I listen to common knowledge I should be weak and small. But after my LBM topped at 178 and didn't change for 10 years I started to ask questions and wonder why...

Many people have told me that my inability to gain muscle the last 10 years is because I am training wrong or clueless.

Maybe I am, but the fact remains my LBM hasn't changed a hair in 10 years. It's right where Casey predicted it to be.

[BigFiveFive]

Casey Butt's give himself cushion, what I mean by this is that he states that some people are harder to tell due to different bodytypes and "freak-like" wrist and ankle circumferences. Ive done his natural potential chart twice, the first time was about 2 years ago and it put me around 192-197lbs maximum natural potential, 2 years later, 197-217lbs, what does this mean? Well besides im a case study under the "freak" category because of my wrist and ankle sizes, it also means when I reach my maximum potential I will be the BIGGEST natural bodybuilder to ever live and compete at 5'10 (70 inches)...I have my doubts. But as I stated he has some cushion.

[Rich Knapp]

Very understandable Steve.

I'll have to read more on if Cassy looked at things like:
Mature Muscle being more dense.
He is only saying LBM OR muscle size.
What variables he covered meaning a top Natural pro may not be the biggest. Many Large naty pros are no names because they don't have the muscle seperations or hit stage presants as good as smaller guys. Look at Ty he is a light weight but he won the MN show. That don't make him the biggest guy there.

I'll read on this when I get time.

BUT my piont in this thread was its a mind set for me to drive harder.

I didn't want to open a can of debate. Never intended that.