W/o time, duration? Facts or fiction?

[MMA Max]

I don't buy any of that working out longer brings up cortisol levels and all that sh1t, Thats just writers in Mags telling you that junk so you go out and buy a cortisol blocker from the company thats makes that lifting mag and most of that junk don't work anyways. If that's the truth then how do MMA fighters work for 8 hours a day? Sure there are supps that help prevent that and eating well stops all that stuff but I honestly think some people are built for hard work and other are not.

Nature shows this everywhere, Some beast can just grow, Some beast can just work, A horse can pull a load for awhile, But a horse can't pull the same load that a Water Ox can and I am sure none of those beast can pull the same load a rhino can..

During MMA training I work for hours on end with out stop, I pull loads, drag ****, Throw **** and punch **** for 6 days a week, During Military life I worked for hours on end over seas but in these days right now I am just working on weights and I work till I feel I have done work.

If I don't feel like I moved weight, I move weight till I feel like I puffed up like a puffer fish.

NooBs Should Stick with major lift or pull for 5 sets and 2 supporting simple sets of 3 sets or maybe im wrong, lol!

[big_swede]

Originally Posted by gaspers04

Interesting topic. I would love a 45 min workout, I always end up hitting the two hour mark. I'm never exhausted or "hurting". I generally leave feeling like I have done something worth while and feeling on top of the world, usually.

Me too, feeling like a king when done working out after a hour and a half.

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by MMA Max

I don't buy any of that working out longer brings up cortisol levels and all that sh1t,

Casey Butt is one of the most intelligent lifters on the planet and he doesn't write for a magazine. He is one of the most scientific guys you will meet in the genre.

He is not trying to create a be all, end all rule. But he has studied the science as great lengths, so I think we should at least consider the impact of what he is saying.

MMA fighters surely don't lift weights for 8 hours per day.

There is a big difference between working 8 hours a day doing taxing lighter work and squatting 400+ pounds for 3 hours. I worked as a honer - a very physical job, and lifted heavy all day long. It wore me the hell out. It wasn't making me stronger. It was beating me down.

Extended training requires lots of rest and proper eating. It will also create injuries in the long run, especially when you lift heavy weight. There are also CNS issues to factor in.

Again, I am not telling other advanced lifters how to train. Far from it. They know their limits.

I have never trained over 75 minutes. Most of my workouts were under and hour. And after about 30 minutes of heavy squatting I am done.

You young guys have to understand that beating the crap out of your body works for a while, but something will break. It always does. In my early 20's I was at the top of my game. I could lift all day if I wanted to, and I played basketball for hours. I was a machine. But it caught up to me. All abuse does. You have to be smart about your training.

I make a living talking to lifters in this industry. And for every 40 year old beast who trains for 2 hours, there are 20 who are beaten, battered and bruised. To a man, they all tell me they wish they would have backed off the volume in their youth. And I agree.

I don't want to tell anyone how to train. But I also have a responsibility to present all sides of the coin. Once you are an intermediate, you know your body. Train and experiment. And train long if it means results. But also understand that training long and heavy weights will one day lead to injury and a battered body.

And Max, I don't want you to think I'm jumping on you. Like I said, I am on the fence about training duration. I just also like to interject some "old ass guy" perspective.

[sneezingstardust]

The short answer: It depends.

You need to be getting PLENTY of food/sleep to support heavy training. And IMO, it's extremely hard to train with maximal effort past an hour. Maybe if you're resting long between sets, but if you have shorter rest periods and HEAVY weights, I guarantee it'll be difficult to train for over an hour with weights more than 3x per week.

It depends on what you're doing, and if you are recovering properly. You have to look at all aspects of things. The important thing is that you're making progress, and not getting injured. If you can do that while training 2 hours per day (and have the energy for it) then hell, by all means go ahead.

There's no set time in black and white. It's just a guideline for beginners, so they don't feel they need to be in the gym for 4+ hours per day to "get jacked".

[big_swede]

Originally Posted by BendtheBar

Casey Butt is one of the most intelligent lifters on the planet and he doesn't write for a magazine. He is one of the most scientific guys you will meet in the genre.

He is not trying to create a be all, end all rule. But he has studied the science as great lengths, so I think we should at least consider the impact of what he is saying.

MMA fighters surely don't lift weights for 8 hours per day.

There is a big difference between working 8 hours a day doing taxing lighter work and squatting 400+ pounds for 3 hours. I worked as a honer - a very physical job, and lifted heavy all day long. It wore me the hell out. It wasn't making me stronger. It was beating me down.

Extended training requires lots of rest and proper eating. It will also create injuries in the long run, especially when you lift heavy weight. There are also CNS issues to factor in.

Again, I am not telling other advanced lifters how to train. Far from it. They know their limits.

I have never trained over 75 minutes. Most of my workouts were under and hour. And after about 30 minutes of heavy squatting I am done.

You young guys have to understand that beating the crap out of your body works for a while, but something will break. It always does. In my early 20's I was at the top of my game. I could lift all day if I wanted to, and I played basketball for hours. I was a machine. But it caught up to me. All abuse does. You have to be smart about your training.

I make a living talking to lifters in this industry. And for every 40 year old beast who trains for 2 hours, there are 20 who are beaten, battered and bruised. To a man, they all tell me they wish they would have backed off the volume in their youth. And I agree.

I don't want to tell anyone how to train. But I also have a responsibility to present all sides of the coin. Once you are an intermediate, you know your body. Train and experiment. And train long if it means results. But also understand that training long and heavy weights will one day lead to injury and a battered body.

And Max, I don't want you to think I'm jumping on you. Like I said, I am on the fence about training duration. I just also like to interject some "old ass guy" perspective.

Very good point BtB, its the long time perspective of lifting heavy for a long time that got me thinking about this matter in the first place, and having people with years of experience and knowledge to ask about these matters is worth gold. Thanks!

[kitarpyar]

Originally Posted by big_swede

"Keep your workouts short, 45 minutes is good but under one hour or you will go catabolic!"
"Keep your workouts short and intense!"
"Working out for over one hour will increase your cortisol and be contraproductive!"

Regarding cortisol, a couple of interesting posts that refute it, both by competitive lifters -

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Layne Norton's Journey to the Natural Pro Stage

and

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Layne Norton's Journey to the Natural Pro Stage

[Lerho]

It depends also so much if you are training mainly for strength or for mass. For strength, longer rest periods. My workouts takes 90-120mins. I train 2-3 times a week. Usually at least 2 exercises out of "big three" (Bench, Deadlift, Squat), half an hour/each..so it takes about an hour. Then military press/dips, chins/barbell row, leg press in non-squat day,straight-legged deadlift in non-deadlift day, in the end some ab-work. When someone does this in an hour doing it heavy, I would be very impressed.

But If I would go to the gym 4-5 times a week, I would keep my workouts under an hour and do like upperbody/lowerbody-split. But I like it this way (fullbody training), it works better for me personally.

[gaspers04]

I'm not trying to debunk anyone's training philosophies. This is just how my workouts tend to go. I train at home primarily, as many of you do, and its hard to shut out "home" while training. So between sets I might take care of things that I need to do, nothing in depth (like checking on my Rotty & Boxer to make sure they didn't chew the couch in half), but none the less it still takes me away a couple of times during my workout. So a two hour session isn't uncommon. Maybe I should get a gym membership...

[BendtheBar]

Originally Posted by kitarpyar

Regarding cortisol, a couple of interesting posts that refute it, both by competitive lifters -

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Layne Norton's Journey to the Natural Pro Stage

and

Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Layne Norton's Journey to the Natural Pro Stage

Thanks Kit.

Like I said, I am on the fence on this issue. My main concern is that we are careful to not encourage beginners to lift more before they understand their bodies and how to eat and add mass.

When a group of intermediates and advanced lifters, such as ourselves, proclaims that "more is better", the young guys latch on.

I firmly believe that no beginner should train more then one hour per day, 3 times per week until they:

A) Have gained some mass and strength.
B) Have a better understanding of their bodies, and what is and isn't working.
C) Have trained at least 6 months.

If a young lifter makes gains, and has established that he understands how basic muscle building and diet works, then he is equipped to experiment, and understand what is and isn't working for him.

Now, with all this said...I still don't believe you need to workout long to get results. And for long term health, I do not believe it is the best way to train. And as I have stated, nearly every over 40-something lifter I talk to agrees. And I talk to quite a few. Including many big names in the natural realm.

All studies aside, I think the question is...if you don't require long workouts for muscle building results, what then are the benefits of longer workouts? This question does not imply that "no one" requires a longer workout for results.

We must also keep in mind that I am asking this question primarily in the context of muscle building, and not powerlifting, since the "long workouts are catabolic" discussion primarily is associated with bodybuilding. I want to make this point clear, so all the C&P guys don't think I'm trying to tell them how to train.

Another major point of mine is this...for naturals, after beginner gains start to slow, so when you become an intermediate, if you utilize volume training you will be killing yourself for little return on investment. Casey Butt has established that the rate of drug free muscle gain to be "about":

http://weightrainer.blogspot.com/200...scle-gain.html

Year 1 - 16 pounds
Year 2 - 8 pounds
Year 3 - 4 pounds
Year 4 - 2 pounds
Year 5 - 1 pound

muscle gain in one year = 0.3 × wrist2 × 0.5(no. of years training - 1)

So if after, say 18 months, you have gained 20 pounds of muscle, why kill yourself volume training for the last 10 pounds, when it most likely isn't needed?

I believe that many naturals refuse to accept the reality that gains are limited, and that they start to complicate training (and slip into more volume) when gains slow. They do so hoping to bomb, blast and blitz their bodies, and "shock" new growth.

They reality is that the well is almost dry, and volume blasting and destruction makes little sense at this point.

I haven't gained a pound of muscle in over 10 years, and am confident that I am a near-max potential natural. So doing more doesn't appeal to me, and doesn't make sense for my health and training longevity. I am confident that no amount of volume training will shock new gains.

I hope you all understand that this doesn't mean that I believe your training should be dull. If you want to train longer for pleasure, by all means do so. I train more frequently for pleasure. We all need challenges.

[gaspers04]

You da man Steve, well said.