![]() |
|
|||||||
| Active Threads | Register | Articles | Members List | PL League | Competitions | Arcade | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read
|
| Articles Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Nutrition, Supplement Articles. |
![]() |
|
|
LinkBack | Article Tools | Search this Article | Display Modes |
|
by BendtheBar 07-04-2012, 10:37 PM
more info on periodized training, and folks claiming Jones/Darden/Menter style training is the scientifically validated training method. Its time for the HIT - Periodization battle to the death. Before we start, briefly recall my background so you know where I'm coming from: I've been training almost 16 years now. I presently train at the Mecca, Gold's/Venice. I started when I was 13 years old. My training history was: 2 years Arnold style (train 10--12 hours per week) 2 years Mentzer style (train 3 hours per week) 4 years Jones/Darden style (train 1 hour per week) 3 years Mentzer style 4 years high volume periodized (10--18 hours per week in the gym) I made great gains my first year, which I now attribute to be a beginner. Around 20 lbs (but I grew an inch or two, too). Second year my gains slowed way down, which I now attribute to overtraining and lack of variation in the workout. I lost enthusiasm for the long hours with little results. So I was attracted to the then fairly new (and hyped) J/M/D styles of training. I made very slow, steady gains on the J/M/D style. Its hard to quantify during my growing years, but once I stopped getting taller, they were only ~ 2 lbs of bodyweight per year. What I can say for sure is my untrained adult weight would be about 150--160 lbs at 5'9'', based on other members of my family, and predicitons based on size of frame (I have a scrawny frame, small joints, and come from a family of scrawny people.) Instead, at the end of all the J/M/D 9 years of training, I weighed 170, so those nine years of training probably added about 20 lbs of fairly lean mass to my frame. In my first year of periodized training, I went from 170 to 195 lbs. The next year I pushed it up to 208. Those were my best gaining years---25 lbs the first year, 13 lbs the second. These gains were all drug free, by the way. (As for my current size and strength: I ultimately got mass up to 225 lbs. At my peak weight, I was about 16% bodyfat, 18'' arm (cold and flexed), 49'' chest (cold and flexed), 26.5 inch quads (cold and flexed). As for stength: My bench is at 420 lbs, squat 650 lbs, deadlift 575 lbs presently (done in the legal pwerlifting style, no cheating). These are up from about 320, 450, 400 prior to starting the periodized training.) My personal conclusion is that I was undertraining on the J/M/D styles, and that as I increased the training time, the gains increased in proportion. However, the increase in training time to 10 or so hours per week was only possible by using periodization to avoid overtraining. As further proof that I am really a hard gainer type, note that training hard 10 hours per week, I would stagnate after approx 3 weeks of training. Only by periodizing was I able to jump over these hurdles and make gains consistently the whole year. Also, I followed Jones/Mentzer/Darden training advise very thoroughly. There is no chance that I misapplied their directions, or did not train intensley enough. I can vouch for this because I see mentzer train clients evry day, and I worked harder, and with better technique, than the majority of his trainees do. Same for nautilus---I followed their advice to the letter. As for my goals: I always wanted to be as huge and strong as possible. I was and am a hardcore weightlifter. My goal is to reach my potential, or get very close. many people do not share this goal, and so that will influence what type of training is right for them. Warning:I am only interested in the training styeles that can carry a person to their limits of growth and strength, not the most time efficient methods. M/J/D training is time efficient---you put in a little time, you get out a little gain (beginners exempted). Now, lets establish what I consider to be the best book I ever read on training methods. It turned me on to periodized training, and is thus responsible for the bulk of my gains: Weight Training: A Scientific Approach, by Michael Stone, PhD and Harold Obryant, Phd. ISBN 0-8087-6942-1 360 pages, illustrated. copyright 1987. cost: about $27. You want credentials, well these guys got it up the wazzu. This ain't no Ellington Darden Phd. and Nautilus Corp. hired gun. Both gys are university professors, strength coaches for champion collegiate teams in weightlifitng and gymnastics, and heads of sports physiology research laboratories, as well as weightlifters themselves. They are not selling any thing, and they sure don't earn their living from this text book (unlike folks like Draden, Mentzer and Jones). They provide an incredibly well researched survey of what modern sprots science says about weight training. Guess what: state of the art is not HIT! Jones and Darden are not leading weight training researchers! Their techniques have been shown to be generally inferior to others for strength and mass training! Big surprise.... (It actually was to me when I first came acrosss the book.) If you really want to know the scientific status of weight training and techniques for it, it you must read this book, period. This is a college text on weight training, intended for a sports physiology/ athletic trainer course at the college level. It covers all aspects in detail: nutrition, biomechanics, physiology os muscle growth, theories of training, training techniques, exercise technique, steroids, etc. Each chapter has 100-200 references from the recent scientific literature. In particular, it has an excellent chapter on training, concerning number of sets, reps, volume, intensity, the value and technique of periodization, etc. The reason I try to promote this book is to counter that pseudo-scientific pop crap that guys like Jones, Darden and Mentzer have produced. Jones and Darden are actually referenced in this book, but it usually takes the form: certain people (ref Jones, Darden) have claimed X, but subsequent research (...zillions of refs...) has generally found this to false This will undoubtedly be a big shock to those in the Jones/Darden/Mentzer cult. It was to me when I forst encountered it. When I trained their style, I would argue quite vociferously that they were scientifically validated, etc,etc. I was sucked in by their pseudo-scientific jargon and trappings, and after all, I was traing their style and making my slooow but sure gains in just a few minutes per week. Only later when I found this book did I realize it was possible for an advanced trained to make the big gains necessary to reach their potential, which I have subseqently done. I know most of you will not ever find this book, becasue it isn't at the B. Dalton's like the Jones/Darden/Mentzer stuff. It is not illustrated with steroid bloated pro bodybuilders lifting fake plates and doing their fake screams---so it is dry by comparison. I found it by accident in the sports phys section of a medical bookstore. (but if you don't get this book, at least read up on periodized training, such as the Ironman routine, or the Powerbuilder routine in Muscle Media 2000, etc---it is definetly the way to train for long term max gains, beyond the beginner level). So, I will qoute to you---at great expense, since my typing sucks as you surely have noticed---a few passages most relevant to these claims that HIT is the predominant scientifically validated training theory (NOT!): Page 109, Chapter on training principles modes and methods: "At least one machine manufacturer recommends that only one set of an exercise be performed to exhaustion, and that this represents a sufficient workload for gains in hypertrophy, and strength (11,43). This method of training greatly reduces the total workload made possible by multiple sets, which means the activated motor units recieve less training. Part of the reasoning behind using sets to exhaustion is that, due to fatigue, the nth repetition would be maximal. This confuses relative and absolute maximum tensions; fatigue *inhibits* the use of some fibers, whereas all fibers are active with absolute maximum tension (3). *Tension* , not fatigue, is the major factor in developing maximal strength (3). One set to exhaustion likely reduces the training effect and produces small gains in lean body mass. Stowers et al (67) observed inferior performance gains (measured by 1 rep max squat, vertical jump) from one set to exhaustion compared to multiple exhaustion sets and a program periodized over 7 weeks." And page 115, same chapter: Machines versus free weights. The studies and observations of this section are of a practical nature. They compare free weight training programs to machines using recommended training programs. Free weights generally produce superior results to machines (...refs...) as well as superior results in power movements (...refs...). Now some better stuff for our discussion: from the chapter Practical Considerations for weight training, pg 141: Frequency of training exercise scientists and physical educators have generally recommended training 3 days per week (17,30,126). This recommendationn has been base largely on experiments dealing with ... untrained subjects.It has been believed that training 3 days per week provides optimum recovery and allows efficient increase in strength... but many athletes, including weightlifters, train 5 and 6 days per week, often using multiple training sessions per day. ... Gillam (63) observed that increased frequency (2--5 days) of training produced superior results in the bench press, lending additional credence to empirical evidence, Training theory and principles (see Chapt. 6) suggest that the frequency of training should be as high as possible *without* over training. Weight training is no exception. As pointed out in chapter 6, overtraining can be reduced through variations in volume and intensity. Thus frequency of training can be high if proper variation is introduced. .. A third factor (in frequency of training) concerns the training status of the athlete. As in other sports activities (...refs...) beginners may not have made sufficient adaptations to recover as fast as advanced weight trainers. Beginners may need more days of rest to avoid over training. .. To a large extent, frequency of training depends on the goals of the individual. Three days per week may fit the ohysical and psychological needs of some weight trainers, but both empirical evidence and careful scietific observation strongly suggest that frequencies great than the typical three day per training can produce superior results in strength, power, ... especially is *advanced* weight trainers, including weightlifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders. ------------------------- These selections pretty much indicate the tip of the iceberg: (1) the training claims of Jones/Darden are not accepted by the sports physiology community as the most effective methods for building mass and strength, nor by the athletic community. And many of their claims are actively refuted. (2) more training is better, as long as you don't over train. (3) Train however suits your lifestyle, but you won't reach your maximum potential on a couple hours a week. The book of course shows how to set up suitable periodized training shcedules for those interested in going beyond the limitations of simple training systems, and shows sample schedules used by elite wtrength athletes. Bodybuilding is not their prime focus, do they do discuss a periodized programfor thast, but you can easily apply what they say to setting up a bodybuilding program. It aslo convers nutrition. Again contrary to J/M/D, you need plenty of calories and protein to increase lean body mass during high volume periodized training. My personal experience agrees well with this text. After 9 years of mentzer/darden/Jones type training, I was 5'9'', 170 lbs and lean, so fairly muscular---people often asked if I was a gymnast or wrestler. It resulted in limited muscular gains. After *just* 2 years on a periodized, *much* higher volume schedule, I was 208 and big---everbody knew I was a bodybuilder then. So, what is my final message to those folks who have made satifactory gains using HIT, M/J/D styles? It is this: Yes, you can make some gains on those styles, esp if you are a beginner (I would even recommend them for a beginner). And yes, they certainly are time effective. So, if you can get the gains you desire that way, excellent. But don't expect to be able to get close to your potential with those training styles. I've not heard of any advanced lifter making the sort of gains I have made using such low volume techniques, and it for sure didn't work in my case. And the J/D/M approach has yet to produce a top builder or powerlifter who trained predominantly that way, even though their techniques have been out and popularized for 20 years now, and their have been thousands of nautilus gyms for nearly two decades now producing trainees. That is a substabtial body of evidence against their claims of superiority.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado." Support MAB by Shopping with Muscle & Strength: |
|
Views 284
Comments 1
|
| Sponsored Links |
|
|
|
|
#2 (permalink) | ||||||||
|
Off Road
has no status.
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,625
Reputation: 466911
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
A rant or a sales pich?
|
||||||||
|
|
|
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Tags |
| battle, death, hit, periodization |
Similar Articles
|
||||
| Article | Author | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Knowledge is half the battle...understanding is key... | 5kgLifter | General Board | 5 | 08-20-2012 07:47 PM |
| UPA 2011 Iron Battle on the Mississippi | Marc | Powerlifting & Strength Training | 9 | 07-25-2011 08:11 PM |
| Epic Battle | gaspers04 | General Board | 18 | 02-12-2011 10:17 AM |
| Linear Periodization vs. Reverse Linear Periodization | BendtheBar | Powerlifting & Strength Training | 0 | 07-06-2009 10:23 AM |
| Article Tools | Search this Article |
| Display Modes | |
|
|