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Old 06-07-2011, 12:51 PM   #31
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Good breakdown!

No.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:51 PM   #32
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If a kid is provided with optimal nutrition since his childhood, a better bone structure, density, etc would be developed by this child, right? Does it change his natural potential?
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Reinaldo.Gomes View Post
If a kid is provided with optimal nutrition since his childhood, a better bone structure, density, etc would be developed by this child, right? Does it change his natural potential?
From the moment you are conceived your DNA has already been determined. You can't eat your way to becoming a super human. Bone density can be affected by overall skeletal loading by the process of heavy weightlifting. Combining a good diet, with good training will only yield your best chance at your predetermined max potential. So to answer your in a succinct fashion, NO.

As has been said. The information was gathered by looking at and comparing genetic elite's. You simply are not going to beat the numbers given for max potential by any significant margin.

The debate that has happened in this thread happens every single time this topic or max natural potential is brought up.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:44 PM   #34
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Champions don't put limits on things boys.

Nor do they talk about it, they be about it.

Speaking of which!

/endthread
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:58 PM   #35
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I borrowed a little info from one of the interviews of Dr. Casey Butt.

Muscle and Strength: I want to start off by introducing you to those in the natural bodybuilding community who are unaware of your work and research. Can you please tell us a bit about your personal story, background and your research?

Casey Butt:
I've been training for roughly 20 years - a little longer if you count my younger years when I just fooled around with the weights. During that time I've trained and corresponded with national and world caliber bodybuilders, powerlifters and Olympic weightlifters (some drug-using, some not), and been involved in all three sports on a casual basis, although competition has never been my motivation. Academically, I have degrees in physics with an applied math minor, pure math with a biochemistry minor, electrical engineering, Masters in mechanical engineering and a Ph.D. in controls engineering. I've written for MILO and Hardgainer magazines as well as websites and training certification organizations. I no longer personally train "clients" as I simply don't have the time, and never felt entirely comfortable charging people for one-on-one training knowledge anyway. In the late 1990s I started the WeighTrainer website to help spread real training and nutrition knowledge free of bias and without ulterior motives. For a time I published a magazine under the same name.

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Old 06-07-2011, 06:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFiveFive View Post
Champions don't put limits on things boys.

Nor do they talk about it, they be about it.

Speaking of which!

/endthread
I know what your saying Big, but there is also the aspect of being realistic.

I can say all day that I'm going to go out and train, and run a top speed of 45mph, but no matter how hard I train, it will not happen.

You are smart enough to know that there is a science to this pursuit, and we as humans have limits to what we can achieve naturally. The current top levels of the sport of bodybuilding are not natural. You know it, I know it, and a lot of other people know it, including the Pro's involved. Yet, many of them will claim that they are natural, or at least that they are not using illegal drugs to achieve the level they have reached.

It is this situation, that sets up unrealistic goals for the neophytes that are just starting to learn about this pursuit. There is a huge differenace between natural, and drugged lifting.

Part of what is trying to be achieved here at MAB is the honest representation of what can be achieved naturally. Credible research has been presented that you disagree with. Thats fine. however, if you disagree with the reseach then prove it wrong in an equally scientific fashion.

I would love for you to come forward with data to back up your positions that you have taken.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:23 PM   #37
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I understand completely, and it's good for people to know their limits if they chose so, but those people will never be champions. Sure Ricardo, Layne, Miller, etc. Have all found out their natural potential, and they laughed at it and kept training, and pushing limits as well. For some of them (according to the studies) they are "maxed out" in potential, ok... So why do they keep training/eating/prepping harder, and harder, more intense, on a new "level"? Because their champions and they don't put limits on themselves, nor will I, ever.

I personally have grown, along with my name in this sport, I am known and followed by many professionals, they see a future in me, and they see new limits. Ive asked many of them about natural potential, Casey Butt and the subject in general. They all tell me the same thing;

"Don't limit yourself kid, and who the hell is Casey Butt?"

So I will continue to do so, I see your natural potential and raise you two.


...And I don't do data bruh.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:59 PM   #38
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFiveFive View Post
I understand completely, and it's good for people to know their limits if they chose so, but those people will never be champions.
I have to disagree with you here again.


Quote:
Sure Ricardo, Layne, Miller, etc. Have all found out their natural potential, and they laughed at it and kept training, and pushing limits as well. For some of them (according to the studies) they are "maxed out" in potential, ok... So why do they keep training/eating/prepping harder, and harder, more intense, on a new "level"? Because their champions and they don't put limits on themselves, nor will I, ever.
This part is the part I want to focus on.

The answer as to why people keep pushing themselves, is as Steve mentioned already. Most people are not at their max natural potential. The reason why, is not that far removed from a physics equation we all know.

E=MC2,

What this equation says is, as you go faster, and faster, the energy required to continue acceleration of an object will become so great that no object can ever produce enough energy to exceed the speed of light.

A photon, is a single light particle. It has about the lowest mass that we know of. Obviously the lower the mass of an object the faster it can travel before it hits the wall of speed where it requires an infinite amount of energy to go any faster.


What does this have to do with weightlifting?

It has already been discussed that your rate of gain will as an average be about half of what you put on the previous year. So lets look at an example.

Let's say that as a natual lifter you can put on 30lbs of muscle.

let's say that you are able to put on 15lbs the first year in lean mass. Your halfway home, that wasn't too hard was it.

Year 2 you work just as hard, but you only put on 6 lbs if muscle.

Year 3 you continue to work just as hard but it only nets you 3lbs of muscle.

You have put on 24lbs of lean mass in three years. That is a lot of lean mass, and you still have 6lbs of pure lean mass you can carry. Those 6 lbs of lean mass will fill in and add a lot to your frame but they are not going to come easy. You can't coast to add them. You need to work even harder than you did for the gains you aquired the first three years.

Unfortunately the Human body often breaks down, and goes through highs and lows in hormornes. It will fight you to even hold on to the mass you have built, let alone add the rest of what it is capable of.


This is about the point that most naturals are at. They have most of their natural potential, but not all. They also give up gains they have worked for when they diet down to single digit BF levels. Naturals can't hold that hard fought lean mass when they diet down for contest. Naturals spend a lot of time regaining ground they once had. It is not as hard the on subsequent trips, but pushing ahead into new ground while possible, is very hard.

This is where the champions you speak of are at. They are the guys who keep trying to reach that elusive peak, no matter how hard. It does not matter that it is very hard to reach, they just keep trying.

It is called a natural limit for a reason.

Your natural level of testosterone is the energy you require to reach that limit. As you get closer, and closer to the wall, it slows down to a point where things seem to be standing still. It is not that different than adding 1 more rep or 1lb to the bar. Any progression is still progression.

(Yes, you could take drugs at this point and easily reach past that natual point, but thats not what we are tallking about.)

Those last 6 lbs will breakdown roughly, under ideal conditions for a natural.

year 1.5
year .75
year .37
year .18
year .09
year .04
year .02


It takes a true natural, many decades of lifting to achieve into the high 90's of Natural potential. There are a lot of other aspects that come into play as well. However that is a completely different level, and topic of conversation.



Quote:
...And I don't do data bruh.
Big,

You consider yourself to have a good understanding of nutrition in how it applies to your undertaking of the sport. To say that you don't do data, is to say that your advice and knowledge of nutrition is based on what?

Are you just making things up?

Weightlifting is a science of a sport. The nutrition aspect even moreso.

You can't use the science of one aspect, and disregard the other. They go together just like heaven and Hell.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:15 PM   #39
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Naa I never said I had a good understanding of anything. Just a kid trying to hang with the big dogs. But I don't need data to do that, just my eye on the prize and make each day perfect. And to push the limits.

You can put limits on me, and other natural bodybuilders and throw numbers at us all day long. That's fine, because then YOU are talking about ME.

Me>You

Exactly why we shrug this off and keep pushing.

OUTWORK BABY!

"Don't limit yourself kid, and who the hell is Casey Butt?"
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:19 PM   #40
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I understand what's going on in here with the debate over natural potential. I also see both sides to it, casey butt's research is very interesting and does show interesting facts. And I understand what Big is saying as well. The way I see it is although I know that it is very hard to reach your personal natural potential, I'm not one to set limits on myself. I've read the research but I havent figured out exactly what my natural potential is because i honestly don't really care.

just wondering - according to research has anyone ever reached their natural potential? is it even physically possible? or is it something that you have to constantly work for and never totally reach, like a dog chasing its own tail?
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