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Old 12-18-2010, 11:16 AM   #1
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Default Classic Physique - Muscle Building, Workouts and Information.

Welcome to,

Classic Physique - Muscle Building, Workouts and Information.

This is going to be the home of how to train in a "Classic Bodybuilder" style. In addition we would like to present information about the golden age, and why what was being done then, is still a viable way to train today. I would like to offer modern approaches while still retaining the classic aspect.

The years between 1940-1960 were generally considered to be the Golden Age of bodybuilding. There is some overlap both earlier, and a little later, but for the most part those twenty years are considered the heyday of Classic Golden Age Bodybuilding.

I am particularly interested in the drug free aspects of the golden age and how they trained. Looking back at this time, and reading the interviews of the athletes reveals that there was a lot going on in regards to various training appoaches, and diet. While there has been a huge amount of information learned over the years, we still have not been able to surpass at the natural level what was achieved by these Bodybuilders. In some ways, it is my opinion that we have actually discarded valuable training aspects, lableing them as, gimics, outdated, and a few other names.

The genetic elites of the time achieved muscle mass on par with what any natural Bodybuilder today is able to achieve. This is a point I would like to focus on. Where you see pictures of some of the Golden Age Bodybuidlers who were not mass monsters as compared to others, this is another aspect I would like to explore and talk about.

Bodybuilding today is all about the most mass you can pack on your frame, regardless if it really fits. While I'm sure that there are bodybuilders of the Golden Age who would also take that route had they been afforded the opportunity, there was also a greater emphasis on proportion, and symmetry.
Bodyfat levels were higher during contest than what we see today as well.

We will touch on a wide range of subjects. Hopefully you will find the information valuable, and will be able to make use of it in your own workout programs. Or challenge what you have come to believe is the best way to do something.

This is not a one way conversation. I want to encourage everybody to participate, and bring information to the table. What I will be bringing to the table is my own opinion on the subject. Some of this information will be nearly identical to the Challenge thread we have going right now. However I will pull some ideas from that thread, and expand on what has been touched on.




Index of post in thread

Post content coming soon.


3 Fullbody classic style routines

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/96504-post1.html

Main page fullbody routines

http://muscleandbrawn.com/category/m...body-workouts/

Last edited by glwanabe; 12-28-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:17 AM   #2
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Default Fullbody Workouts

Some introductory thoughts on fullbody workouts.

If there is one aspect that seems to define the Classic physique methodology, or Golden age of bodybuilding, it is the fullbody workout. While it is true that the fullbody was a popular scheme to train by, it was not the only one. However, for this post we will concentrate on this aspect. Other training schemes will also be looked at and discussed at a later time.

Working the entire body in one session has become a program that is set aside for beginners. At one time it was the way everybody trained for a majority of the year. Some people continued to train this way year round, while others transitioned to splits leading up to contest.

There is enough scientific knowledge that an entire book, or books could be written about fullbody workouts. Over the course of the next few months we will delve into this subject in small bites of information. Trying to present all of the information in one post would be like trying to drink water from a fire hose.

A common scenario for people today who try to train fullbody coming off of a typical modern bodybuilding split is that they fail at it. It is actually easy to understand why they fail. You have to realize that a fullbody program and a split are so different from one another that they simply cannot be approached in the same manner. Working a fullbody program requires that you build up the conditioning needed to complete the session without failing. It is quite literally the difference between running a sprint, and running a marathon.

In performing a traditional modern 5 day split, you are concerned with working a particular muscle hard enough to disrupt it, and have the muscle respond by growing. Typically you will hit it directly once a week and possibly indirectly again, depending on what muscle it is. This is normally done by the application of numerous sets ranging anywhere from 9-20, again depending on what muscle you are targeting.

The problem as I see it is this. Once you have worked a muscle hard enough to disrupt it, do you really need to keep hammering it to oblivion? Are you doing more harm than good? I believe that in the case of the natural trainee, yes. You’re forcing the muscle to drink from a fire hose, so to speak. You only get the one direct instance of the muscle demand to grow. It spends the rest of the time healing from the pounding you unleashed on it. In this scenario depending on the muscle involved you may have one heavy session, and possibly one or two light sessions. Again this all depends on which muscle you are working. The muscle is not going to grow any faster from working it just hard enough to stimulate growth than it will from being pounded to death.

With the fullbody approach you work the muscle hard enough to stimulate growth, and then leave it alone to grow. You come back at it again 48 to 72 hours later, and repeat the process. I like to say, stimulate, not annihilate. During the course of the weeks work you actually do close to the same total amount of work to the muscle, but it is left in better shape to recover from more shorter sessions than from the one long blasting. You still work hard during fullbody, but stop when a muscle has had enough. On a typical 3 day a week fullbody, you rest more than you work. Everybody agrees on the fact the rest is when muscles grow, so why not utilize a program that give you more rest?

In the case of the fullbody workout you also work several muscles both directly and indirectly in one session. Another scenario I see from many people is the complaint that they can’t work their arms on back or chest day. The arm muscles the want to work are too tired from the compound movements of the major muscle. They do not make the connection of the simple concept of pre exhausting the muscle. Triceps tired from benching? Well then it should not take much too just finish them off and be done with your tricep work, right? No, they want to hit the tricep from 18 different angles. Seriously, why?

In fullbody work we take advantage of the pre exhausted muscles and move from one group to another. Usually you will hit the major groups first, then, just finish off the smaller minor groups. In the golden age it was not uncommon for a bodybuilder to spend two or more hours in completing a fullbody workout. While I love fullbody work, even I’m not that much of a masochist to want to pound weights for two plus hours. I generally try to spend about an hour or up to 90 minutes on a long day to complete a session. More often than not 1 hour is what I aim for.

I generally try to structure a fullbody session to be no more than 10 movements per session, and that is a long session. 8 movements is more typical of a long session for a basic fullbody. I like to build fullbody programs where 5-6 movement’s are utilized per session with different sessions being worked through the week.

In the next post we will take a typical fullbody program and tear it apart, and analyze it. We will be looking at the ” Reeves Classic Physique” program.

Reeves classic physique
squat..........3x8-12
bb row........3x8-12....DL 3x5* see note
bhp............3x8-12
bench.........3x8-12
BB/DB curl...3x8-12
dips............5x10@BW Try for sets of 10, but do what you can.
BB calf raise 3x15-20
abs

Perform M-W-F

Last edited by glwanabe; 12-19-2010 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 12-18-2010, 06:07 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
Fullbody Workouts,

If there is one aspect that seems to define the Classic physique methodology, or Golden age of bodybuilding, it is the fullbody workout. While it is true that the fullbody was a popular scheme to train by, it was not the only one. However, for this post we will concentrate on this aspect. Other training schemes will also be looked at and discussed at a later time.

Working the entire body in one session has become a program that is set aside for beginners. At one time it was the way everybody trained for a majority of the year. Some people continued to train this way year round, while others transitioned to splits leading up to contest.

There is enough scientific knowledge that an entire book, or books could be written about fullbody workouts. Over the course of the next few months we will delve into this subject in small bites of information. Trying to present all of the information in one post would be like trying to drink water from a fire hose.

A common scenario for people today who try to train fullbody coming off of a typical modern bodybuilding split is that they fail at it. It is actually easy to understand why they fail. You have to realize that a fullbody program and a split are so different from one another that they simply cannot be approached in the same manner. Working a fullbody program requires that you build up the conditioning needed to complete the session without failing. It is quite literally the difference between running a sprint, and running a marathon.

In performing a traditional modern 5 day split, you are concerned with working a particular muscle hard enough to disrupt it, and have the muscle respond by growing. Typically you will hit it directly once a week and possibly indirectly again, depending on what muscle it is. This is normally done by the application of numerous sets ranging anywhere from 9-20, again depending on what muscle you are targeting.

The problem as I see it is this. Once you have worked a muscle hard enough to disrupt it, do you really need to keep hammering it to oblivion? Are you doing more harm than good? I believe that in the case of the natural trainee, yes. You’re forcing the muscle to drink from a fire hose, so to speak. You only get the one direct instance of the muscle demand to grow. It spends the rest of the time healing from the pounding you unleashed on it. In this scenario depending on the muscle involved you may have one heavy session, and possibly one or two light sessions. Again this all depends on which muscle you are working. The muscle is not going to grow any faster from working it just hard enough to stimulate growth than it will from being pounded to death.

With the fullbody approach you work the muscle hard enough to stimulate growth, and then leave it alone to grow. You come back at it again 48 to 72 hours later, and repeat the process. I like to say, stimulate, not annihilate. During the course of the weeks work you actually do close to the same total amount of work to the muscle, but it is left in better shape to recover from more shorter sessions than from the one long blasting. You still work hard during fullbody, but stop when a muscle has had enough. On a typical 3 day a week fullbody, you rest more than you work. Everybody agrees on the fact the rest is when muscles grow, so why not utilize a program that give you more rest?

In the case of the fullbody workout you also work several muscles both directly and indirectly in one session. Another scenario I see from many people is the complaint that they can’t work their arms on back or chest day. The arm muscles the want to work are too tired from the compound movements of the major muscle. They do not make the connection of the simple concept of pre exhausting the muscle. Triceps tired from benching? Well then it should not take much too just finish them off and be done with your tricep work, right? No, they want to hit the tricep from 18 different angles. Seriously, why?

In fullbody work we take advantage of the pre exhausted muscles and move from one group to another. Usually you will hit the major groups first, then, just finish off the smaller minor groups. In the golden age it was not uncommon for a bodybuilder to spend two or more hours in completing a fullbody workout. While I love fullbody work, even I’m not that much of a masochist to want to pound weights for two plus hours. I generally try to spend about an hour or up to 90 minutes on a long day to complete a session. More often than not 1 hour is what I aim for.

I generally try to structure a fullbody session to be no more than 10 movements per session, and that is a long session. 8 movements is more typical of a long session for a basic fullbody. I like to build fullbody programs where 5-6 movement’s are utilized per session with different sessions being worked through the week.

In the next post we will take a typical fullbody program and tear it apart, and analyze it. We will be looking at the ” Reeves Classic Physique” program.

Reeves classic physique
squat..........3x8-12
bb row........3x8-12....DL 3x5* see note
bhp............3x8-12
bench.........3x8-12
BB/DB curl...3x8-12
dips............5x10@BW Try for sets of 10, but do what you can.
BB calf raise 3x15-20
abs

Perform M-W-F
Since im runnin this i actually am ready to see the full breakdown, is the break down gonna be in the form of squat not only works legs but the "HOLD" works the biceps aswell, this type of thing?
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Old 12-18-2010, 07:29 PM   #4
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Is the break down gonna be in the form of squat not only works legs but the "HOLD" works the biceps aswell, this type of thing?
Well sort of, but there is more to it than that. The post you linked really is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more about fullbody that we have not talked about.

One of the things I would like to happen is for people to participate with their opinion about what is being discussed. I am not an expert in this subject matter, rather I am a fan and a student myself.

When I say tear apart the Reeves I will be doing from my own viewpoint as to why I did what I did. Anybody can feel fee to tear into it and give their opinion both from a good and bad standpoint. We learn the most when we listen to each other, and from our own mistakes. I can promise you that I will make mistakes, I'm human.

I am not here to preach. I want to discuss and share information. If anybody has a topic to discuss, write a post about it.
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Old 12-18-2010, 07:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
Well sort of, but there is more to it than that. The post you linked really is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more about fullbody that we have not talked about.

One of the things I would like to happen is for people to participate with their opinion about what is being discussed. I am not an expert in this subject matter, rather I am a fan and a student myself.

When I say tear apart the Reeves I will be doing from my own viewpoint as to why I did what I did. Anybody can feel fee to tear into it and give their opinion both from a good and bad standpoint. We learn the most when we listen to each other, and from our own mistakes. I can promise you that I will make mistakes, I'm human.

I am not here to preach. I want to discuss and share information. If anybody has a topic to discuss, write a post about it.
Good Post!!!! Thanks Gl, since we are breaking this particular program down, I may not be able to perform dips as regular as i like and i know there is no sub for dips(which i was gonna use as a finisher for triceps after bench) what could i put in that place, would bench dips suffice
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:37 PM   #6
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I've said this many, many, many times, but I'll say it again. Chuck Sipes is my favorite classic bodybuilder. Here's some pix of him for those who don't know who he is: http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/mem...uck-sipes.html

And here are a few articles/interviews on how he built that body: Chuck Sipes Golden Era Classic Bodybuilder Strength Feats
The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban: Chuck Sipes On Power Training - Dennis Weis
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:41 AM   #7
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Working the entire body in one session has become a program that is set aside for beginners. At one time it was the way everybody trained for a majority of the year. Some people continued to train this way year round, while others transitioned to splits leading up to contest.
This is an important point, and one I stress often. Prior to the steroid era fullbody workouts were THE way to train. In the modern era, they are generally relegated for beginners only.

While one can engage in the endless debate over which approach is better, it should not be forgotten that fullbody workouts are viable for all levels of training.

Some of the strongest naturals of all time used them in one form or fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
There is enough scientific knowledge that an entire book, or books could be written about fullbody workouts. Over the course of the next few months we will delve into this subject in small bites of information. Trying to present all of the information in one post would be like trying to drink water from a fire hose.
Casey Butt's research alone is exhaustive. While it is certainly obvious that splits can work, as most modern naturals use them, it becomes apparent from Casey's research that fullbody workouts are not just for newbs or Rippetoe followers.

Casey Butt Muscle and Brawn Bodybuilding and Powerlifting.

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Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
A common scenario for people today who try to train fullbody coming off of a typical modern bodybuilding split is that they fail at it. It is actually easy to understand why they fail. You have to realize that a fullbody program and a split are so different from one another that they simply cannot be approached in the same manner. Working a fullbody program requires that you build up the conditioning needed to complete the session without failing. It is quite literally the difference between running a sprint, and running a marathon.
I failed quite a bit in 2010 when trying to use them. It definitely does take more of an evolutionary approach - meaning that you start slow and build into them either with weight or training volume.

This "training evolution" was actually more of a common practice in the pre-steroid era. In the modern era you don't see this preached often. It's usually enter with guns a-blazin'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
In performing a traditional modern 5 day split, you are concerned with working a particular muscle hard enough to disrupt it, and have the muscle respond by growing. Typically you will hit it directly once a week and possibly indirectly again, depending on what muscle it is. This is normally done by the application of numerous sets ranging anywhere from 9-20, again depending on what muscle you are targeting.
One thing I have found is that with splits (which I have used for 20+ years) is that I tend to overwork my joints a bit more because the focus was on doing as much as possible for a given bodypart in X amount of time.

Though a fullbody took be a while to "get into a groove" with, I found my joints tended to handle it better because it was a lower volume per session.

Mileage may vary of course...

I have run fullbody workouts for only 2-3 months this year, but I have fewer strains on them...(so far!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
The problem as I see it is this. Once you have worked a muscle hard enough to disrupt it, do you really need to keep hammering it to oblivion? Are you doing more harm than good?
It is my opinion that far too many trainees think only about muscle fatigue, and do not consider other factors such as the stresses place upon their joints, connective tissue, etc, when training.

I have run higher volume only several times during my lifting career, but on these occasions I have been smashing my joints to death, and have incurred the most strains.

Obviously some lifters handle this better than others. I do not wish to speak in generalizations. There are levels of conditioning at work with splits as well.

But for me as I age the question becomes - when lifting, looking through the lens of training longevity, what impact does high volume training have on the joints and connective tissue?

I worked in a factory as a machinest for 3 years and had to do an extremely high volume of heavy lifting. While my muscles did adapt to these demands, my body was beat up to no end (joints, connective tissue, CNS fatigue, poor recovery).

What this taught me is that while you can condition your body to handle extremes, some aspects of the body just don't handle things as well as others. Once again, I was forced to view lifting with more than just a "muscle" lens.

I want to repeat that I am not saying high volume workouts can't work. They are used successfully by many lifters. My greater points are that:

A) I am not convinced they are needed to achieve the same levels of muscularity and strength.

B) I am not convinced that high volume split workouts are healthy choices for non-competitors who enjoy training and have an eye on training longevity.

My personal slant - even though I have used splits, my set volume was rarely high volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
I like to say, stimulate, not annihilate. During the course of the weeks work you actually do close to the same total amount of work to the muscle, but it is left in better shape to recover from more shorter sessions than from the one long blasting. You sti
Again the question everyone needs to ask themselves...am I annihilating my joints and connective tissue doing 20 sets for chest in one session?

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
In the case of the fullbody workout you also work several muscles both directly and indirectly in one session. Another scenario I see from many people is the complaint that they can’t work their arms on back or chest day. The arm muscles the want to work are too tired from the compound movements of the major muscle. They do not make the connection of the simple concept of pre exhausting the muscle. Triceps tired from benching? Well then it should not take much too just finish them off and be done with your tricep work, right? No, they want to hit the tricep from 18 different angles. Seriously, why?
Modern lifting often strains really hard to separate compound lifts into "muscle groups" because that is the primary vessel it uses (splits). Each of us is different, with different strengths and weaknesses. This can mean that for some, a chest workout destroys the triceps, and a back workout the biceps and traps.

The natural tendency in the modern era, with splits, is to turn a compound lift into more of an isolation lift by lightening the weight and using intensity techniques and/or slowing the tempo and "feeling" the muscle work. This is a point rarely talked about.

Another point rarely talked about is that most naturals make the bulk of their gains on simple, basic programs and generally only adopt the above when the gains (naturally) stall. They do so with the hopes of "re-igniting" gains, which is a myth of course. Naturals can't re-ignite gains. They have finite gains.

This is not to say that certain new approaches can't create a small boost - they can. But realistically, if you are an experienced natural who is only gaining 1 pound of muscle per year, are these techniques really working to boost gains? This is a tough question to answer, and depends on the circumstances of the lifter involved. But as a general rule, I do not believe that this focus on "isolation-i-fying" compound lifts is any more effective than simple progression.

It does make the lift more mentally taxing, and you are working harder to battle the CNS and lactic acid buildup, but is this working the muscle as hard as a natural lift speed with heavy weight? That is the question.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:28 AM   #8
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:36 AM   #9
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:07 PM   #10
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Great idea GL. A picture is worth a 1000 words. So here are a couple classic physiques.

Reg Park


Clarence Ross


John Grimek
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David, Husband, Father, Pastor
(Yasen Miroslav Zavadil)

2014 100%RAW American Challenge, May 31, 2014:
Squat 292
Bench 176
Deadlift 375 PR
Total - 843 at 50 yrs 199.6 lbs

Shooting for a 900+ total for next meet. (see quote below)

"If there is nothing you can improve on, your standards are too low!" - BAMA Strength Coach Scott Cochran

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
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