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Old 12-07-2011, 01:03 PM   #61
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It was basically, "vulgar this - vulgar that - and shock value for the sake of exclamation." I was bored...
About sums it up.

I'm genuinely interested in his training ideas but find it so hard to wade through all the nonsense to get to them. In particular, I find the critiques of other training systems to be poorly argued.

He pushes this idea that the only thing separating a person from elite athletic status is willpower and the willingness to think differently from the herd. I think this is quite a comforting belief to a lot of people, because it suggests that we aren't victims of forces we can't control (like genetics). If you succeed, it was solely through your own efforts, because you're such a badass. But if you fail, it was only because you lacked the will - in that sense it was still your decision. You just didn't want it enough.

It's a bit like listening to one of those motivational speakers that tells you anyone can be a millionaire - if only you believe enough and put in enough hours work.

Having said that, the basic idea - that perhaps a greater workload, frequency or intensity might be beneficial for many - is interesting and worth giving a try.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:52 PM   #62
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I can (usually) read past writing style. In terms of his contributions I think it's good to throw that into the field.

As a whole we, the Internet Lifting Community (TM), are recovering from HIT, HG ideology running through the forums. In many way's Rippetoe/Starr was a great departure. It is genuinely refreshing to see this pendulum swing even further out to the other side with talk of two-a-days, 6 day a week training and enough volume to make the late Mike Mentzer spin in his grave. (But only once mind you, and superslow... ba dumpa dush).

Widespread talk of training methods like those used by the Bulgarians but adapted for the masses can only be a good thing. Not to say that it's definitely going to work but it exposes people to another polar extreme which can be used in certain periods of training.

He does write somewhat brashly but it's just his writing style. Personally there are a few strength writers that are very popular which I personally CANNOT STAND. Perhaps it's a British thing, but if you can read past that they may have something positive to offer.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:58 PM   #63
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as a new lifter i can say that as the pendulum swings it's often i hope that i am not being inefficient in my training.

every type of training will work to some extent for all people for some time, but for how long and how effective is what varies, so it's easy for new lifters (myself) to feel like we may be training on the "wrong" swing of things, according to what is truly most efficient for us personally.

but is it generally agreed upon that most training does not need extensive variety until advanced phases of a lifter's career?
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:06 PM   #64
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every type of training will work to some extent for all people for some time, but for how long and how effective is what varies
Yes. This reminds me of a PM I sent to a young man from this forum a while back. The long and short of it is that (mostly) anyone who is really, really strong didn't get that way be performing the same low volume routine over and over. Sorry it just doesn't work that easily for the majority of us. Now I'm not talking 3/4/5 strength, I'm talking Elite level strength. It's not that easy, it does require some complexity. We'd be arrogant to think we can accomplish what the Elite lifters can while just relying on low volume and training simplicity.

Note that I'm saying 'some' complexity, it doesn't need to be mind boggling but we do need to move away from one routine, continuously, all the time.

Well here's the thing, these types of routines Wendlers, Hardgainer, HIT and the rest of the abbreviated stuff will all inevitably work for a little while, if for no other reason then the lowered volume allows the body alleviate some of the fatigue built up and *show* the strength produced prior to them.

99% of these guys will say something along the lines of "I switched to Wendlers and made great progress". Well I'm SURE YOU DID! But that is probably just the work done prior to starting it manifesting itself since your body is allowed a small break from the high volume which was actually working!

Actually building strength long-term will come from what Starr termed as "building the base of the pyramid". That is gradually increasing workload to end up at a higher peak.

That's where I think the problem arises, these abbreviated programs will inevitably work for a month or two and that is just enough time for these 'net trainees to say "SEE I TOLD YOU IT WORKS!".

A complete system needs to take into account build up and rest periods, every other well researched sport does the same I don't know why we insist on living in the dark.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:10 PM   #65
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very good points. the complexity being periodization of some form?
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:10 PM   #66
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As a whole we, the Internet Lifting Community (TM), are recovering from HIT, HG ideology running through the forums.
This is very true. This hardgainer mindset is still going strong, and perpetuated to seemingly no end. I do appreciate the balance that Jamie provides, but there is often a huge middle ground that is ignored or glossed over.

The notion of volume training has certainly challenged me, but it has been timely. I find that currently, despite my age, I can lift 6 days per week without issue.

This is something I could not do in the past. It was an evolution, somewhat random, and a byproduct of having a home gym. Able to conveniently train, I began listening to my body more and doing what I felt like doing on any given day.

When combined with my growing knowledge of many training practices prior to the "Arnie era", I wanted to try new things. My first unique experiment was with a "Drunk Russian" program I created. I performed a variation of every major lift 5 days a week for about 6 weeks. And to my surprise I felt great. The daily volume was low, of course, but it opened doors.

Currently working with Fazc I am learning another important lesson: the need for courage. I have been reluctant to work over 80% of lifts during the last 2 years, simply because it is mentally tough. Far more mental than physical for me. There is nothing mentally easy about rep work at 90%.

What I have learned in 25 years is that training requires both a physical and mental evolution. You are not only building strength every step of the way, but you are also building confidence. At some point my strength passed my confidence. This resulted in self-inflicted stalls in progress.

Lifting is not a sprint. There is no need to rush into volume or frequency. There is only a need to take another step forward, and to assess that step as honestly as possible.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
It is genuinely refreshing to see this pendulum swing even further out to the other side with talk of two-a-days, 6 day a week training and enough volume to make the late Mike Mentzer spin in his grave. (But only once mind you, and superslow... ba dumpa dush)..
Like the Mentzer comment

I agree with the 'refreshing change' point. Definitely. But I think what he's doing goes beyond brash writing. He's rubbishing existing training systems using a Mentzer-like dogmatism. And on the one hand he's saying 'everyone is different, so no one program works' and on the other hand advocating a specific set of recommendations that work the best for gaining strength.

So it goes against the grain for me to see specious arguments (to my eyes) promoted with such a lot of shouting down of alternative views. To my mind, that's exactly how HIT gained so much prominence.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:20 PM   #68
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very good points. the complexity being periodization of some form?
Right. If you look at what Btb and I are doing it can hardly be called complicated. We don't use percentages or a myriad of assistance we just concentrate on the basics and have 1-2 heavy weeks followed by 1 light week. It's a good form of periodisation. Perhaps later on more complexity is needed and percentages need to be controlled tighter.

Importantly though it's a plan which takes into account high stress to the body followed by adequate rest periods.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:25 PM   #69
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so it's really jamie failing to acknowledge the existance of phases of lifter's advancement and the need to vary training according to it.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:28 PM   #70
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This is very true. This hardgainer mindset is still going strong, and perpetuated to seemingly no end. I do appreciate the balance that Jamie provides, but there is often a huge middle ground that is ignored or glossed over.
Right. It's upto the reader to provide that middle ground. Without polar options there can be nothing to anchor us in the middle.

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What I have learned in 25 years is that training requires both a physical and mental evolution. You are not only building strength every step of the way, but you are also building confidence. At some point my strength passed my confidence. This resulted in self-inflicted stalls in progress.
Yes. I always defended HG ideology when people would say it's self limiting. My thoughts were that no it isn't and it's the trainee rather than HG that limits a person. But no it really isn't. 300/400/500 was ingrained into my mind as 'excellent' goals. Which they are, I guess. But that does somewhat add a layer of 'contentment' once reaching these goals if you let it. 500/650/650 is now more along the lines.

(This has nothing to do with equipped Vs unequipped by the way, it's more to do with the mentality)
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