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Old 11-27-2011, 10:08 PM   #31
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Bulgarian wave loading:

Quote:
Sets 1 - 3: Warm-ups with a load lower than 60% of the competition max/personal record
Sets 4 - 7: Work up to the daily 1 rep maximum
Sets 8-9: Daily max - 40lbs for 3 reps Sets
Sets 10-12: Daily max - 25lbs for 2 reps
Note: They will use this form of loading for 3 daily exercises.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Bulgarian wave loading:
An effective premise to say the least. The key in keeping this effective will be to avoid a mindset of linear progression (add X lbs/kg per session) and rather just get quality work in; pretty difficult lifts with flawless technique regardless of weight. Daily max should be hard enough that complete focus on the task is necessary for completion, but easy enough that the completion of the 'max' is certain.

---

Late to the 5x5 discussion from the 1st/2nd page but I'd put my money on A) it didn't work for him and B) 5x5 is a program, not a system. To get good at something you have to leave lots of room for change, and something as vanilla and somewhat structured as the typical 5x5 doesn't allow for long term progress. He also has a problem with 5x5 because of its hype: 5x5 is often considered a be all, end all.

For his dislike of Ripp... I can only assume it has to do with Ripp's constant references to over training, the training philosophies he largely puts out ('anything under 5 reps is usually useless for strength,' etc.), and Ripp's arrogance... just read his posts (starting strength forum) to get an idea.

---

On a side, while there really is a system behind Lewis' chaotic training, the emphasis is more so put on just getting into the weight room and kicking ass (like jwood said). Something too often over looked with most in the pursuit of the perfect program.
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:14 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Most people seem to follow cycles of:

excellent progress -> injury or demotivation -> regression -> excellent progress etc.
Just to point out this is so true, having trained in gyms and watched the forums for some ten years now I know very few guys who haven't succumbed to this cycle. It's almost inevitable. Like anything though it's just a matter if recognising it and dealing with it. Ride the good waves as best you can.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:27 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Pull14 View Post
For his dislike of Ripp... I can only assume it has to do with Ripp's constant references to over training, the training philosophies he largely puts out ('anything under 5 reps is usually useless for strength,' etc.), and Ripp's arrogance... just read his posts (starting strength forum) to get an idea.
At what point does Rippetoe feel singles, doubles and triples become useful?
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:04 AM   #35
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At what point does Rippetoe feel singles, doubles and triples become useful?
I misspoke by using the word "useless" and should have gone with 'less effective' for most lifters (of all advances). The blanket statement may be true for novices, but not so much for those above that experience level as seen from Lewis' accomplishments and that of the several lifters on this board focusing a lot of singles-triples. Not to mention the oly lifters who breathe on singles, doubles and triples for many of the big strength lifts.

At what point would Rip start advocating below 5 reps... thats something you'd have to ask him. Looking at some of the info he provides on programming you don't see to much below 5 until you get in the advanced levels. From there the training is structured in 8-12-16 week blocks with the lifter will usually spend more time with high reps, building up volume before tapering off and spending a limited time in the lower rep ranges.

I don't stalk the guy so there are probably more exceptions, it just happens that every time I check out his forum there more advocating of 5 reps and above than there is of less.

Last edited by Pull14; 11-29-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post

With regard to low risk - well, a lot of Jamie's schtick seems to be sneering at that, plus anything he doesn't regard as 'manly'. But there's something to be said for continual steady progress. Most people seem to follow cycles of:

excellent progress -> injury or demotivation -> regression -> excellent progress etc.

Anyone who can consistently make even creeping, mediocre progress would, with a bit of patience, make some incredibly impressive gains.
Very true. Seemingly "slow" progress still adds up in 5 years to some big lifts.

To piggyback on what Fazc said, one of the keys is to not backtrack or deload every time you experience a minor strain or bad workout.

I see far too many people deloading after a single bad training session. This is a bad habit to get into. 10 to 25% of my workouts are complete crap. That doesn't mean I derived nothing of importance from them.

Over the years I would go through small periods or progression and then hit 2 weeks stalls. It's just part of the game. As long as a trainee is not into that overreaching zone, a bad workout should not command a deload week.

It's also become quite common to see lifters backing down on weight because progression starts to change the way a lift feels. They will cruise along and all of a sudden hit a workout where the weight is so heavy that it catches them off guard and a lift doesn't feel right. They lose confidence under the bar. The next step is usually a deload week followed by a reset with a much lighter weight.

This is part of the "demotivation" that Tannhauser mentioned above. Only a couple possible scenarios, but popular ones at that.

I certainly am not saying that deloads and periods of regression are always useless. I simply think a lot of them can be minimized or aren't needed.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:50 AM   #37
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I agree with Mr. Chaos & Pain, Jamie Lewis. Too many people are afraid to venture into territory below the 5-rep sets. If you read 'Starting Strength', you see that Rip's program is geared toward people who just want to get bigger and stronger, but still essentially remain mediocre, not people who want to break records in powerlifting. The 5-rep protocols are good, especially for beginners lacking a solid foundation, because they combine strength with hypertrophy. However, if you're serious about obtaining brutal strength, your training must evolve. This means that if you're an aspiring powerlifter or weightlifter, it would behoove you to eventually look elsewhere for the appropriate methodology. The C&P e-book, 'Issuance Of Training Insanity' is a good place to start. 'Dinosaur Training' (Brooks Kubik) is another great resource. 'Purposeful Primitive' (Marty Gallagher) is excellent too. 5/3/1, on the other hand, is not something that I recommend for those striving to reach their potential as a strength athlete. It seems like it's basically an off-season football program, not something which produces champion lifters, which is fine for those willing to accept mediocrity.

BTW, here is Lewis doing 1600 raw (without a belt too) @ 181, not including two successful 4th attempts (squat and deadlift):

www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/20800
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:07 AM   #38
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5x5 sucks? Starting Strength for medicore goals? 5/3/1 is an off-season football routine? I'm not familiar with this Chaos and Pain stuff, but I'm always guarded agains somebody that has to put everything else down to prove his point. I know a heck of a lot of powerlifters that started with basic programs like Starting Strength. I know a lot of powerlifters that used 5x5 routines to work their way through the intermediate ranks. I also know successful powerlifters that use 5/3/1 with huge success. I've seen all the above routines recommended by some of the biggest and strongest lifters around. I know who I'll be listening to.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:36 AM   #39
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And just so nobody thinks I'm blowing smoke here, I will post a quote from Rhodes...

Hello everybody. I'm starting a 16-week training cycle this week for a Raw competition in January. My goals as a Raw lifter are as follows:

1. Squat 700lbs
2. Bench 500lbs
3. Deadlift 800lbs
4. Total 2000lbs

Obviously, if everything goes as planned, the 2000 should fall. I want to make this happen in January, but if it doesn't I'll be fine. Eventually, all of these numbers will fall.

For those who don't know or follow me on Elitefts.com, this is how I train:

I use the 5/3/1 method. I have a few tweaks that I use for various reasons. I Squat and Deadlift on the same day. I don't follow the template for Military Press work during a meet training cycle. I also keep my numbers very light when doing the 5/3/1 protocol.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:40 AM   #40
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5/3/1 works well for people who are already strong. Doesn't work well to get you there in the first place IMO.

My issue with C&P is that he loves to generalise AND often neglects to mention that he has been training for 17 years which is pertinent for two reasons:

1. During that time he has used 5x5 and made progress although not stellar.
2. He is now conditioned to the rigours of his intense training which he may not have been at the stage at which he used 5x5.

No style of training is a catch all. What you do to get to a 3pps bench may not necessarily work to get you to 4pps. Learn and adapt people.

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