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Old 08-14-2012, 12:07 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by LtL View Post
Last night on close grip work my elbows were struggling to stay tucked and the bar was drifting backwards.
This above is the problem I'm trying to avoid. At least initially any full range pressing is going to contribute to the problem if taken to the limit, rather than help to fix it. That goes for Close Grip presses just as much, if not more, than med/wide grip pressing. Your body will still resort to it's strongest groove when it's pushed to the limit, the key is to make sure your either

A) Stay under the limit so you can press as you want to.
B) Completely eliminate any full range heavy bench presses temporarily until it's fixed.

This is why I think speed benches will be the only full range pressing I'll do for a little while at least. Any exercises taken to the limit, whether that's max or assistance work need to be done for a partial range. At least temporarily this should be a blunt-force approach to the problem.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:23 PM   #702
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I'll give it a try for a while and see what happens. Max effort bench exercises will now be:

- 2 board
- 3 board
- Floor press
- Maybe 1 board

What else?

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Old 08-14-2012, 01:05 PM   #703
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What else?
I will pick mostly top end and high board work initially just to focus on the triceps and it's easier to keep elbows in on partial movements. But it probably doesn't matter terribly what the exercises are, what really needs to be there is the intent. The intent on keeping the elbows in. There can be absolutely no flaring of the elbows, no reinforcing of that technique for a good few months. Match that with strengthening of the triceps and shoulders and it should work.

For example your CGInclines lately and my Board work recently. The exercises at least on paper look tricep orientated but it's the performance of those exercises which really matters.

Last edited by Fazc; 08-14-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:23 AM   #704
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Following on from the previous installment:

To get all of the above in across the week I feel like I'll benefit from a little more structure. Not a rigid routine as that sort of goes against what I've been doing but a little more of a template as is typical with this type of training. But tailored to my own particular weaknesses and strengths.
  • Max effort exercises for Bench and SQ/DL
  • Speed Squats/Deads/Benches
  • Secondary Barbell Exercise on Max day for 3-5x5
  • SBE on Bench primarily an overhead Press
  • SBE on Squat primarily a hip extension
  • Pump work for upper back, lats, triceps, abs, hamstrings, lower back for 3-5x10

All exercises will be focused on strengthening shoulders/triceps for Bench and hamstrings/hips for Squat/Deadlift. That's where my strengths need to build to take advantage of the gear. Upper back will be a focus too.

Sunday

Speed Bench - 9x3
Rows - 5x10
Tricep Extension - 5x10
Upper Back - 5x10

Monday

Max SQ/DL - Up to max
SBE Hip Extension - 5x5
Hamstrings/Lower Back - 5x10
Abs - 5x10

Wednesday

Max Bench - Up to max
SBE Overhead Press - 5x5
Rows - 5x10
Upper Back - 5x10

Friday

Speed Squat - 6-12x2
Speed Dead - 6-10x1
Chins - 5x10
Abs - 5x10

That about covers it.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:02 PM   #705
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Wow interesting turn of events for you lately Faz, never thought I'd see the day you'd sell out and go westside (j/k).

Just found your comment interesting about doing max effort bench work with only partials. That's what Pat Casey was doing when he broke 600 raw. Multiple singles at various lockout heights followed by a final set or two full range raw afterwards.

Question for you as well. My mind doesn't like 10's so I'm back to the 5 singles, 5 fives routine and then doing 5 sets of 8 for a lighter rep day on inclines a second day. Was just curious you said somewhere you used to do that Hepburn/Starr routine. What kind of progress and issues did you have with it? Did it work well for deadlifts as well? I find it works well on squats and benches but my deadlift goes nowhere.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:46 AM   #706
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Question for you as well. My mind doesn't like 10's so I'm back to the 5 singles, 5 fives routine and then doing 5 sets of 8 for a lighter rep day on inclines a second day. Was just curious you said somewhere you used to do that Hepburn/Starr routine. What kind of progress and issues did you have with it? Did it work well for deadlifts as well? I find it works well on squats and benches but my deadlift goes nowhere.
Yep, I ran that for a good 4-5 years but only for my Bench and Press. Progress took me from a 95-100kg CGBP to a 140kg CGBP over the span of a few years. So progress was ultimately very good.

Negatives was that it tore up my elbows and didn't allow for much in the way of useful assistance. In retrospect once I had reached the 140kg stage I would reduce intensity of actual bench pressing and work harder on assistance exercise. From the build up in the initial stages though there is nothing quite like greasing the groove and nothing else.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:50 AM   #707
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I was just looking at the run leading up to my Squat and Dead PRs lately. This what I box squatted:

It reads 'total weight, percentage of perceived max and finally bar+band weight'.

140 50% - 140
180 65% - 140+40
210 75% - 170+40
220 79% - 140+80
235 84% - 155+80

I can pretty much scrap that first week as it was just a learning experience. From then on I used mainly between 65% to 85% and that was my range of useful volume. This is quite useful in determining future cycles.

The next goal for me is to use a lower box and maintain that 280kg squat or increase it deeper. I reckon this will take a further 9-12 weeks seeing as I'm dieting as well. So this will help me prep for that.

Initial thoughts are to run through the first wave with week 1 @ 65%, week 2: 75% and week 3 @ 85% then run through that again for the second wave at a lower box and see where I am at that point.

----

Just sort of breaking that down even further:

180 65% - 140 50% + 40 15%
210 75% - 170 60% + 40 15%
220 80% - 140 50% + 80 30%
235 85% - 155 55% + 80 30%

So bar weight naturally fell between 50-55-60% and band weight varied between apprx 15 to 30%. A first wave of to parallel or below squats could be done with the lighter bands followed up with the same wave with heavier bands. That would represent 6-9 weeks of work and at that point I'd look at maxing or pushing the actual bar weight up a little.

Last edited by Fazc; 08-22-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:07 AM   #708
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^ Good post. Interesting stuff.

Quote:
Initial thoughts are to run through the first wave with week 1 @ 65%, week 2: 75% and week 3 @ 85% then run through that again for the second wave at a lower box and see where I am at that point.
With about the same band tension as previously used?
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:19 AM   #709
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Thanks man.

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With about the same band tension as previously used?
Yeah, I've been thinking about a more realistic plan. It'll probably take another 2 waves to below parallel. Then a further 2 waves to realise some improvement in poundage. So what I'm thinking if something along these lines:

(Bear in mind this is a lot of theory, I'm just sort of thinking out loud as usual)

First section - Goal to hit below parallel with the same tension/weight. All based off 280 squat.

Wave 1 (lighter bands):

140+40 - 180
150+40 - 190
160+40 - 200

Wave 2 (stronger bands):

140+80 - 220
150+80 - 230
160+80 - 240

Second section - Goal to theoretically do enough for a 300 squat. All based off a 300 squat.

Wave 3 (lighter bands)
150+40 - 190
160+40 - 200
170+40 - 210

Wave 4 (stronger bands)
150+80 - 230
160+80 - 240
170+80 - 250

That represents 3 months. At that point, I'll have a good crack at 300. Might not make it, but at the very least 290 will prolly go.

Last edited by Fazc; 08-22-2012 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Numbers a little messed up - adjusted them
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:49 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
Yep, I ran that for a good 4-5 years but only for my Bench and Press. Progress took me from a 95-100kg CGBP to a 140kg CGBP over the span of a few years. So progress was ultimately very good.

Negatives was that it tore up my elbows and didn't allow for much in the way of useful assistance. In retrospect once I had reached the 140kg stage I would reduce intensity of actual bench pressing and work harder on assistance exercise. From the build up in the initial stages though there is nothing quite like greasing the groove and nothing else.
Thanks Faz that makes sense. Mind you I'm coming from a very different place then you are now which is a major reason a pure westside approach doesn't appeal to me as much. I won't likely ever compete in PLing. My benches are fairly wide (by close grip powerlifting standards), my squats are high bar olympic ATG and my deads are conventional.

Right now I'm using it on benches with a slight decline and full back squats. Without presses as a focus on the second day I'm free to use that day for more assistance as need be. It's in this way I experimented before with doing DE benches on the second day but switched to light rep work (4 sets of 10) the second day and didn't notice a difference in results.

But in my case, where my focus isn't so much on tricep and lockout strength or shirted benching, the singles and fives day is very similar to westside's ME day it's just the additional volume work is done on benching rather than tricep/lockout work. My second day, however, lends itself to much adaptation and experimentation for whatever is needed. I could even add extensions on the heavy day if it would help...just being very careful about recovery right now.
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