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Old 07-19-2012, 11:55 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I think they help add muscle mass, which contributes to strength building. And the progression on them builds strength.

If I were training someone on 531, I would almost always recommend more volume on squats and bench press after the money set. This is how I set things up for Jen on the forum.

I don't know if I am answering your question, but no, I don't think one single money set a week is the most efficient way to add strength for late beginners to intermediates. I think additional rep work is needed to build bases. I'm not sure a 5x10 at 50% is something I will every recommend; I like a 3x10, leaving room for an extra assistance exercise, but that's really splitting hairs as both are effective.
Good points. I wasn't exactly endorsing 531 it's just a very simple example of this idea. The question for me pertains more to advanced lifters (if I can dare call myself that). I've always followed a sets across approach and believed that lighter sets could maybe build mass but not strength.

Now what I'm wondering is if 1x5, 3-5x10 could build strength as well as 5x5, 10x3 etc for a fairly advanced lifter that can't gain from 1x5 anymore.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:27 PM   #692
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Good points. I wasn't exactly endorsing 531 it's just a very simple example of this idea. The question for me pertains more to advanced lifters (if I can dare call myself that). I've always followed a sets across approach and believed that lighter sets could maybe build mass but not strength.

Now what I'm wondering is if 1x5, 3-5x10 could build strength as well as 5x5, 10x3 etc for a fairly advanced lifter that can't gain from 1x5 anymore.
Wanted to chime in here:

3x10 is a completely different animal than 10x3. You'd maybe do 3x10 with what...60%, 65% of your max?

With a really balls-out 10x3 day, you'd be using 82.5-85% of your max each set.

There is a huge difference is terms of loading versus volume in any training routine. Sets of 3x10 might be greater volume than 5x1, but again: different loading. The heavier load will place a much greater overall stress on your tendons, ligaments, and bones, and that is crucial.

I would go so far as to say that, in my opinion, any routine/program that stresses working muscular strength/size and pays little to no attention to the literal support cables of your body is to be looked at most critically.

(Note: I'm still not very experienced in a lot of aspects of training - however, many old school lifters have shared the same view, and I'm drawing from their observations combined with my somewhat limited experience.)
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:35 AM   #693
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Been a while since I updated anything. My training has become a little more fluid. I am not monitoring days in between workouts. Part of the reason for this is simply Summer busyness. I am making sure I deadlift heavy at least once a week, squat every 2 to 5 days, and bench twice a week (or every 4 days).

Deloads have become rare. I dropped my frequency a couple months ago to allow my lower back to heal, and since that time haven't really needed extended deloads. If I feel sub-par I simply add in an extra rest day here or there.

Bench Press

After much playing around, I have found that my eccentrics feel fresh and strong when I do no assistance work. Even a minimal amount of curling or overhead dumbbell pressing makes my bench eccentrics feel slow and weak.

Right now I cycle between two bench press day:

Heavy Singles
315 x 1
335 x 1
355 x 1
375 x 1

405 x 1
405 x 1
405 x 1
405 x Max Reps - Money set

When I hit 3+ reps on the money set, I add weight the next time I have a heavy day.

Moderate Triples
315 x 1
335 x 1

370 x 3
370 x 3
370 x 3
370 x Max Reps - Money set

When I hit 5+ reps on the money set, I add weight the next time I do triples.

Squats

I simply work up to a max single for the day. This has been working well for nearly a year now. I started at 465 for singles, and am now at 555 for singles. When my singles weight feels manageable, I add 5 pounds.

I squat every 2nd to 5th day, rarely doing more than 2-3 working reps a week.

Deadlifts

These are stagnating. I got away from frequent pulling because of my lower back strain (meet related). I spent the last 4-5 weeks working between 70 to 85%.

I am going to alternate between heavy and moderate days, using a money set (like with bench) to monitor performance. Starting this today. 605 is 90%

Heavy Singles
405 x 1
495 x 1
585 x 1

605 x 1
605 x Max Reps - Money set

If I hit 3 reps, I will add weight.


Moderate Singles
405 x 1
495 x 1

555 x 1
555 x 1
555 x 1
555 x Max Reps - Money set

If I hit 5 reps, I will add weight. 555 is about 82.5% of my one rep max.

Notes

The money sets on bench and deadlift are simply a method to monitor performance, stagnation or improvement. I need to know where things are going or not going right now.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:28 PM   #694
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Looks like a good plan, Steve. The part about adding in an extra rest day and staggering days is pretty much how I avoid deloads as well.

How's the back feeling at the moment?
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:38 PM   #695
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Looks like a good plan, Steve. The part about adding in an extra rest day and staggering days is pretty much how I avoid deloads as well.

How's the back feeling at the moment?
It's ok. I am just too heavy right now. There is a tipping point where a belly becomes a burden and creates lower back strain for me.

I'm working on this issue one pound at a time.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:51 PM   #696
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Squat singles are up to 570 pounds. This is about 45 more pounds than where I was for singles in April, 2012, before the UPA Nationals. Tracking about a 640+ raw squat right now.

I want 600 pound singles by year's end. By then a 700 raw squat will be in my sights.

During the last 10 months I have done virtually nothing but a max single each day. One single every 3 to 5 days.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:07 PM   #697
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Sounds like me with my deadlift.

You've been making some great progress, man. A 700lb squat is definitely doable.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:35 AM   #698
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Training update for me as well. I've been training in a Westside fashion for the past 9 weeks, for those that know me I detest to try someone else's 'program' but I have to give this credit where it's due. I'm stronger and feel like I have more potential to be strong than I ever have been. Going straight into it, a few things I've learned which pertain to my own training:

Inital thoughts

The whole program: To do Westside you really need to do it all. It's not possible to work part of the routine and really benefit. For example you need to box squat, if you don't you won't benefit from the abundant of assistance work aimed at the posterior.

Max effort can be thought of as purely assistance work. It isn't the time to max on the competition lifts, absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. It's the time to strain but on lifts which will help the main lift.

The number of sets is key here. Approximately 10-12 sets seems optimal including warm ups. Work up to the top weights slowly, even if that means you max on a weight which is less than if you took bigger jumps. The point is NOT to max on as heaviest weight as possible. The point is to work a few lifts close to 100% and strain.

Secondly switch between heavier and lighter

Dynamic effort is where you train the lifts, and to work the lifts correctly in the right form it MUST be heavy. Anyone can train decent form with light weights but attempting to train fast with good form with heavier weight is the key here.

By my quick estimations weights ranging from 70-85% of a geared max, which is bar and band weight, is about the right range. Now let's take a look at that closer:
  • Briefs are used, rather than full gear.
  • Squats are paused on the box, rather than touch and go.

Bearing in mind these two things, the 70-85% range is actually very heavy and more than sufficient to work the groove properly.

Combining Max and Dynamic:What I've found here is that if you think about what you want to accomplish in the next 3 week block this should effect how you're going to organise your max and dynamic sessions. For example if you want to work on top end strength then do raw perhaps even bandless speed benches for 3 weeks and use the max sessions to concentrate exclusively on top end work. This is a top end block I would use:

Week 1: Raw Bench Speed + Reverse Band Max
Week 2: Raw Bench Speed + 3 Board Press Max
Week 3: Raw Bench Speed + Slingshot against bands Max

If you were to focus your speed sessions on top-end strength as well (added bands+slingshot for example) your bottom end strength might suffer and your top end strength might become overworked.

Improving your work capacity so you can actually perform some rep work after the heavy stuff is a must. Done correctly it actually requires a lot of work capacity to do all that, continuously 4 days a week.

ZERO aches, pains and sprains. The only lifts that I do repeatedly through the week are the competition lifts and they are done explosively for weights less than max. This takes a LOT of repetitive strain off the body.

My knees are absolutely fine right now. A far cry from earlier in the year, when walking up and down stairs was tough.

You don't necessarily need a deload in the common sense of the word. I did a consistent deload for every 3rd week out of the last 9 YEARS. For the past 9 weeks I have trained continuously and constantly heavy, something I never thought I would be able to do. The constant rotation of exercises and intensity is key.

Further thoughts on each lift:

Squat and Deadlift: This has been where I have seen most benefit, for the reasons stated above. The box squats which are absolutely key to the entire thing puts a massive workload on the hamstrings/hips/lower back and even sets the correct groove for the Squat and Sumo Deadlift. The two lifts which are mostly used in competition (rather than the Conv Dead).

I fully believe now that the box squat method is the absolutely best way to build a squat, after experiencing this first hand and now I've actually committed to doing it correctly I can safely say that it is the best way. I sit wider, lower and more upright than ever before. With more weight and less strain on my joints. It is absolutely the best way. I can't speak highly enough of them.

As a consequence of that the Sumo Deadlift gets built alongside it, however I do always pull at least once a week a well. Again for speed but heavy and with added band tension. My last Deadlift session added up to 90%+ at the top and I repeatedly pulled that for 8 singles with just briefs.

The combination of the very wide stance Squats and Sumo Deads trained together is a very hard one to beat.

Bench Press:

This one has been a little harder to crack. However I have gotten stronger but this lift feels far more inconsistent. I generally work up in 3 week waves as noted before. What I find is I rotate between raw and slingshot work based on shoulder/chest soreness. What I do here is to usually have a few sessions where I'm working on bottom end strength followed by a top end session. I still haven't quite figured this out in the same way as the Squat and Deadlift however I have a few ideas why and I'm experimenting with them at the moment.

Further thoughts:

Experimenting with increased volume on upper back and tricep work. I think this might be the key to figuring out the right Bench form. I know the right Bench form but it's the inconsistency which is causing issues at the moment. That is indicative of the 'right' bench form not yet being my 'strongest' bench form. Increased tricep and upper back strength should lock my triceps into place and prevent outward rotation of the arms which i'm currently getting. That is indicative of an overly dominant chest/shoulder which will ultimately be self-defeating.

One solution might be to lower the speed weight and continously pound nothing but top-end tricep orientated exercises for a good couple of months to completely regroove my press. It's an option but I'm not sure if it's the best one for a number of reasons.

THAT is my update! I should really edit that a little and turn it into an article.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:26 AM   #699
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I've been meaning to put together a plan for my Benches. I'm basing this off what has worked tremendously well (in my opinion) for my Squats and Deads and where my strengths were when I competed in 2006 a time when I felt my Bench form was far more conducive to equipped benches. Also somewhat related to Btb's frequent squatting thread.

What's wrong now

I'm still far too chest dominant. When I Bench my elbows have a subtle tendency to flare out at the bottom. It's not massively noticeable as you can see from my videos but it's definitely there and isn't productive. I don't think is necessarily shoulder dominance either as my theory is that front delts should contributing to pushing the arms directly up when lying down on the Bench.

How do I know this?

Back in 2006 I was very tricep, shoulder and upper back/lat dominant. My Bench was only around 140kg but it was done with a close grip. I stuck a shirt on at that point and made almost an immediate 190kg equipped bench. I was just strong in the right areas. Nowadays after my 3 years stint of bodybuilding i'm far more chest dominant and my equipped bench isn't much stronger but I'm perhaps 20kg stronger raw.

Why this is an issue

For one it's just not going to produce a big equipped bench.

For two it restricts how much benefit I get from board work, reverse band work, floor press etc because even on partial movements I have the tendency to push off with my chest. This means less tricep strengthening from those exercises and less carryover.

The messed up thing is then, if this isn't completely fixed then that groove will just get stronger and stronger on assistance work and it will never get fixed.

Solution - A complete rehaul of my Bench exercises and form.
  • Temporary elimination of any full range max type of work, including assistance work and max effort work. Anything where my body will have the temptation to muscle up the weight with my current form.
  • Speed work, with bands. This will be full range but light enough to regroove into the correct path.
  • Max effort work dedicated only to partial range work and finished when I feel my form breaks down, not before. This will reinforce the correct groove on heavy weights.
  • Regular overhead pressing as my only full range pressing, aside from the speed work. This should encourage front delt dominance rather than chest.
  • A lot more upper back and lat work to push off the bottom. A LOT more! More for stability than anything else.

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated. More later.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:51 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
I've been meaning to put together a plan for my Benches. I'm basing this off what has worked tremendously well (in my opinion) for my Squats and Deads and where my strengths were when I competed in 2006 a time when I felt my Bench form was far more conducive to equipped benches. Also somewhat related to Btb's frequent squatting thread.

What's wrong now

I'm still far too chest dominant. When I Bench my elbows have a subtle tendency to flare out at the bottom. It's not massively noticeable as you can see from my videos but it's definitely there and isn't productive. I don't think is necessarily shoulder dominance either as my theory is that front delts should contributing to pushing the arms directly up when lying down on the Bench.

How do I know this?

Back in 2006 I was very tricep, shoulder and upper back/lat dominant. My Bench was only around 140kg but it was done with a close grip. I stuck a shirt on at that point and made almost an immediate 190kg equipped bench. I was just strong in the right areas. Nowadays after my 3 years stint of bodybuilding i'm far more chest dominant and my equipped bench isn't much stronger but I'm perhaps 20kg stronger raw.

Why this is an issue

For one it's just not going to produce a big equipped bench.

For two it restricts how much benefit I get from board work, reverse band work, floor press etc because even on partial movements I have the tendency to push off with my chest. This means less tricep strengthening from those exercises and less carryover.

The messed up thing is then, if this isn't completely fixed then that groove will just get stronger and stronger on assistance work and it will never get fixed.

Solution - A complete rehaul of my Bench exercises and form.
  • Temporary elimination of any full range max type of work, including assistance work and max effort work. Anything where my body will have the temptation to muscle up the weight with my current form.
  • Speed work, with bands. This will be full range but light enough to regroove into the correct path.
  • Max effort work dedicated only to partial range work and finished when I feel my form breaks down, not before. This will reinforce the correct groove on heavy weights.
  • Regular overhead pressing as my only full range pressing, aside from the speed work. This should encourage front delt dominance rather than chest.
  • A lot more upper back and lat work to push off the bottom. A LOT more! More for stability than anything else.

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated. More later.
I have a similar problem in that my training last year yielded some decent increases in bench but I have a weakness at the top in triceps and am too chest dominant. Last night on close grip work my elbows were struggling to stay tucked and the bar was drifting backwards. My plan has been to:

- Use POR grip or narrower on all raw work. Only time I go wide is in my shirt.
- More board work after speed sets.
- No more flies or flat dumbell pressing.
- More tricep and upper back work in extra sessions.
- More incline dumbell and overhead pressing for shoulders as well as isolations in extra sessions.
- Also I need to keep up my hip mobility work to enable me to stay loose enough to set-up properly.

This work is ongoing but hopefully when I get back in the shirt in just over a month, I should see some benefit.

Al
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