Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Training Resources
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Training Resources Workouts, Form Videos, Muscle and Strength Training Articles...everything you need. Forum includes the best posts from the forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #591
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I feel bicep and shoulder work to be more of a hindrance/strain inducer than a benefit for me. It's just beating the crap out of my shoulders and brachialis. I'm done with it, and will leave it to the kids. I have too much mileage on my tires to kill these strain-prone areas.
Fair enough. Not the route I would take I have to be honest, but only you truly know your own situation there.

Just gonna throw it out there for you to consider but don't feel you need to even respond, but considering these issues and your weight loss goals I would personally take a solid block of 3 months time out to reduce the amount of strength work you do in a given week down to barebones, get some balance back in the routine, lower your bodyweight, put some work into flexibility, prehab and conditioning for at least a few months. Then switch gears towards strength in the autumn and allow your strength to unfold. The body is one piece, if something is that touch-and-go it won't be long before it let's you down. You're a strong guy, when something goes, it will all go.

I've been there, it has the potential to take you out of the game for years not just months.

Again, I know that's a pretty big statement so feel free to disregard brother.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-10-2012, 04:53 PM   #592
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

My brachialis and elbows are such a sensitive area. I am wondering if It's even worth it to try jumping way down to 30 pounds for curls, or just dropping them completely. Still torn...
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 09:24 AM   #593
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Some thoughts on frequency I've been mulling today.

I respond so well to squat frequency, but when I do a lot of assistance work like I did on Friday, I feel beat the heck up and need more time off. There is definitely a balance here that can be hard to miss when someone looks at programming as a bystander.

The more assistance work I add, the harder it is to train a lift frequently. I feel sore, a little more beat up, etc. Obvious stuff, I know. But the point is that when I train with very minimal assistance work I don't feel beat up and can lift more frequently.

On the surface it might seem easy to add assistance work to a frequency program, but I am finding it a lot harder than I expected.

At some point adding extra assistance work takes away from my ability to focus/perform my primary lifts. In my mind I can see two branches from these thoughts:

1) Train less frequently, ala Westside, using more assistance work. One heavy session a week.

2) Train more frequently, like I am currently doing, using minimal assistance work. 2-3 heavy sessions per week.

Bottom line for me...some lifts will work better with greater frequency and less assistance. Some lifts, perhaps deadlift, work better with less frequent heavy pulling and more assistance. I think we have to be willing to experiment, and be open to the results.

I respond great squatting 3x a week. This is why Westside as it stands doesn't appeal to me when it comes to squats. I also respond great gunning it for 2 weeks, and resting a complete week on squats. I always come back feeling like a beast.

On the other hand, the Westside notion of not training floor deadlifts frequently is starting to make more sense. Certain minor variations are far less taxing, and perhaps because of it more viable for this, and other reasons.

Anyway, the more I work with high frequency, the more I see a need to program around specific lifts and not just stick to a specific template and try to force it on every lift.

This sounds obvious as you read it, but very few of us do this.

I need to do this more. I get trapped in a template too much, trying to make every lift work at the same intensity, frequency and pattern. So...Westside, high frequency, whatever...smash the template as you learn as be willing to mold it around each lift. Hold nothing sacred but PRs.

That's where my head is at this morning. I hope I am making sense.

What if you're on Westside and squatting 3x a week was better for you? Are you willing to make changes?

What if you're training high frequency and deadlift only one every 2-4 weeks was better for you? Are you willing to make changes?

These are the questions I am mulling over in my head as I sip my coffee. Templates can be restrictive. Even the best ones.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 05-20-2012 at 09:29 AM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 11:30 AM   #594
LtL
SHFW
Max Brawn
Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
LtL's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 12,012
Training Exp: 5 years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlifts
Fav Supp: Endurance BCAA
Reputation: 455740
LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!
Default

I think the other thing to consider when adding volume is conditioning. Are you physically ready to deal with the increased workload and recover quickly enough to be able to train again to full capacity? If not are you willing to go through a phase where your training output is reduced while you get conditioned by doing more?

LtL
LtL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 12:19 PM   #595
Pull14
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 3,581, Level: 37 Points: 3,581, Level: 37 Points: 3,581, Level: 37
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
 
Pull14's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Jersey, US
Posts: 1,117
Training Type: Fullbody
Reputation: 32208
Pull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtL View Post
I think the other thing to consider when adding volume is conditioning. Are you physically ready to deal with the increased workload and recover quickly enough to be able to train again to full capacity? If not are you willing to go through a phase where your training output is reduced while you get conditioned by doing more?

LtL
A very important thing to consider. High frequency or not... when you add something, it would be wise to expect something else to suffer for a little while. Have spoken to too many lifters who've ditched and consequently bashed a way of training because their lifts suffered in the initial weeks.
Pull14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 01:01 PM   #596
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
1) Train less frequently, ala Westside, using more assistance work. One heavy session a week.

2) Train more frequently, like I am currently doing, using minimal assistance work. 2-3 heavy sessions per week.
Good observation. I think volume is required in some form, that doesn't necessarily have to be in the lift it could be in a variation which targets a specific area to reinforce good form. For example traditionally I haven't done much Squatting, my Squats are generally pretty ugly for for my knee health I don't bother squatting often. What does work is filling in with ultra strict and heavy Good Mornings. This is less knee/quad flexion dominant and still provides all the relevant muscles with work and reinforces a hamstring dominant squat.

I can recall you did quite well GM'ing 5 days a week as well, though with the way you Squat I would suggest just Squatting 5 days a week to be a good way to go.

Something else to consider, research has shown an optimal 4-8 sets per bodypart per session. This is inclusive of assistance exercises. So if you're squatting for 3 sets and a further 3 sets of pulls with 3 sets of GMs, that's already a very, very heavy top-end session. It's something to consider given what you're saying about volume on either the main lift or assistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Bottom line for me...some lifts will work better with greater frequency and less assistance. Some lifts, perhaps deadlift, work better with less frequent heavy pulling and more assistance. I think we have to be willing to experiment, and be open to the results.
Another thing I'm going to C&P from my reply to Mike is this:

Quote:
On a related note, the reason pulls are generally not trained as often as Squats is that 'in my opinion' the strongest position for the Squat is relatively safe and natural for the human body which is why load is distributed evenly and recovery happens faster. Therefore frequent Squats are usually productive as long as the person can Squat to at least a decent standard. This is also the reason that Benches can be performed frequently by those who can actually Bench safely and have put time into making it a safe lift for them (strengthening the back, lats, traps. Stretching the shoulders etc)

On the flip side the strongest position for a Deadlift is usually one which involves a slow grind with a compromised back position. So the alternative and one which people have picked up on is to use variations of the Deadlift, usually short range (partials) or arch-specific (RDLs/GMs/Dimels) with the addition of some heavy, grinding round back (SLDL/Deficit) pulls thrown in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Anyway, the more I work with high frequency, the more I see a need to program around specific lifts and not just stick to a specific template and try to force it on every lift.
Good point and I agree it's something which gets easily missed when preparing routines on paper.

Something else I will put to you is this, focusing on Squats and Benches exclusively isn't such a bad thing if you can recover from it. Think of it as a specialisation cycle, which will improve your Deadlift as long as you pull (or partial pull) occasionly.

I wrote an article on specialisation in 2002 which was essentially promoting concentration on 1-2 exercises for a long period of time. While I wouldn't go so far as that now, a Squat, Bench and Row are certainly fine staples for any routine. You could do with more upper back work as it stands anyway.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 01:56 PM   #597
LtL
SHFW
Max Brawn
Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
LtL's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 12,012
Training Exp: 5 years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlifts
Fav Supp: Endurance BCAA
Reputation: 455740
LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!
Default

Having never tried any myself this is a genuine question:

Logically in my mind if you specialise in one lift on a programme, then won't the others suffer?

LtL
LtL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 02:23 PM   #598
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtL View Post
Logically in my mind if you specialise in one lift on a programme, then won't the others suffer?
It's a tricky area. Strength is a very specific quality, that much is painfully true.

If a guy was to specialise on Benches then his Squats and Deads would probably go to hell. But what I'm talking about is focusing on 2-3 lifts or even 1-2 lifts for a short period of time which when given a boost in their strength allow for a carryover to other areas. The extra energy and recuperative abilities put into these 1-3 lifts aid in getting stronger with the hope that when a more general routine is adopted the strength gains carry over.

If we're talking about Squats and Deads the relationship can be quite productive, Squats go up and Deads go up for some people. Similar for some people to Overhead Press and Bench Press. I could rattle off a few examples of guys, Jamie Lewis, Paul Anderson even myself in my first couple of years who did exclusively Squats and then matched that with infrequent and usually top-end pulls to fill in the gaps.

That's the sort of specialisation I'm talking about 1-3 large lifts which are expected to have carryover to other lifts. Obviously if Steve gets no carryover from Squats to Deads this is a mute point, but from what he's saying perhaps there is some merit there.

So in the scheme of what we do, that would translate to 3 days devoted to Squatting with the occasional top-end pull thrown in perhaps at the start of every hard week. That type of reduction in volume represents a big step up in terms of recovery but still allows Steve to Squat three times a week which is good for him. With the hope that eventually when he does pull from the floor it would have gone up.

It's a much riskier strategy when you're very strong, as Steve is, rather than when you're just starting out and specificity isn't as much of a concern. Rather just getting stronger overall works. So it's just a suggestion at this stage to see if it resonates with Steve, it's not something which I'd certain would work.

EDIT -

Leading up to my competition pull of 260 I don't think I pulled more than 1 top single from the floor in the preceding 3 months. It was all partial work.

Last edited by Fazc; 05-20-2012 at 02:32 PM.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 06:27 PM   #599
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtL View Post
I think the other thing to consider when adding volume is conditioning. Are you physically ready to deal with the increased workload and recover quickly enough to be able to train again to full capacity? If not are you willing to go through a phase where your training output is reduced while you get conditioned by doing more?

LtL
Good point. As aspect that is certainly part of the equation.

I would add that there are many programs I've run with 9 or so accessory sets that I've never fully become conditioned to. There was a residual soreness, fatigue, whatever for several days.

This is obviously an individual thing, but my point is that there is some tipping point with hard training, volume and intensity where the body just needs rest and recovery. At this point, you may never be fully conditioned to the point where you can increase the frequency.

My main purpose in writing this was to work through the balance between assistance work and frequency. I am finding little value as I progress in waking up feeling "wrecked" the next day.

I've been in the physical grind, pushing and pushing for 25+ years. Until this last year 99% of my workouts I would wake up the next day feel somewhat physically worn down, or wearing workout battle scars. I've never been a high volume guy, but I've never fully felt conditioned to do both 12 hard sets a workout and increase frequency. I'm simply speaking from my experience here. There is a volume level that I never became conditioned to.

Right now I am merely trying to find a balance for each lift. I'm trying to wisely weigh assistance work with optimal frequency, knowing that there is some assistance work tipping point.

The one thing I've learned this past year is that I no longer need to kill myself to make progress. I've started to train more, and workout less. I am certainly not trying to put down any program, approach, or amount of volume, but rather get myself to think about the balance and if I am doing too much assistance work when I could pull back a bit and train the main lift more frequently. This is mainly the case for squats and bench.

How many people are stuck in a program and wrecking themselves with assistance work, never considering an increase in frequency? Quite a bit. A few years back I thought high frequency was insanity.

I do think added work should be added slowly. I also believe that many lifters do so much assistance work that training more frequently doesn't seem possible. It's really this paradigm that I'm thinking about.

Are you overworking assistance to the point where it's taking you away from a more optimal frequency? This is an individual thing. I am not saying either way is better, but merely tossing the question out there for folks to consider. I don't have the answers, and I think a lot of it is individual. But with that said, squatting heavy 3x a week has worked wonders for me, so naturally questions arise...

If someone does 4 hard sets of squats, 3 sets of good mornings, then glute ham raises, heavy abs, RDLs or whatever, have they consider cutting this assistance work in half and trying a greater squat frequency?

My brain is running in circles right now, so I'll end this.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 05-20-2012 at 07:32 PM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 08:03 AM   #600
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,783
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
Good observation. I think volume is required in some form, that doesn't necessarily have to be in the lift it could be in a variation which targets a specific area to reinforce good form.
That ties in more or less with my last post. If I do too much volume on a single day it ends up requiring extra recovery time.

When I was doing squats plus good mornings plus RDLs in a given workout, which was quite common for me, I needed 3 days off. I would generally train posterior chain every 4th day, with the next day being deadlift-centric.

When I started to think about squats the issue of recovery and assistance work crossed my mind. I simply realized that I have to keep it sensible so that it does not require extra recovery.

All my excessive blathering aside, the simple point is that if you're going to squat more frequently, that's going to chew up a good portion of your weekly volume and you're simply not going to have time to perform as much assistance work.

My other point was that because I am thriving on frequent squatting, I need to fight the urge to try and add too much extra assistance work. Why throw a monkey wrench into the equation when it's working well? Adding 75 pounds to the squat in 6 months I think can be considered working well.

It's all about experimentation and using what works; setting aside that which isn't needed right now.

Quote:
Something else I will put to you is this, focusing on Squats and Benches exclusively isn't such a bad thing if you can recover from it. Think of it as a specialisation cycle, which will improve your Deadlift as long as you pull (or partial pull) occasionly.
What I've really been thinking about is going back to my system which worked so well last year. High rack pulls and shrugs, high pulls, rows and one day of high rep, low rack sumos.

Been thinking of limiting floor pulling and perhaps adding a few more squat sets (variation) per day as assistance.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
increasing, strength


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Increasing weight smalldon Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 5 06-02-2012 08:32 AM
Increasing strength during a cut MVP Powerlifting & Strength Training 3 03-12-2012 10:54 AM
Increasing testoserone levels jack3d Nutrition, Diet and Supplements 8 01-15-2012 01:32 AM
Increasing your bench! sneezingstardust Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 15 04-28-2010 06:36 AM
Increasing Deadlift Strength TitanWIP Powerlifting & Strength Training 22 12-23-2009 12:02 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.