Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Training Resources
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Training Resources Workouts, Form Videos, Muscle and Strength Training Articles...everything you need. Forum includes the best posts from the forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-02-2012, 03:22 PM   #501
Hazzard
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 5,710, Level: 48 Points: 5,710, Level: 48 Points: 5,710, Level: 48
Activity: 10% Activity: 10% Activity: 10%
 
Hazzard's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,521
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Squat
Fav Supp: Pizza
Reputation: 1950
Hazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good postsHazzard has made some good posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuytrider View Post
Squats are bad m'kay.



Guy with stupid hat says leg presses are better.
Best comment: "THIS IS JUST IN:humans are actually horses"
__________________
Hazzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 03-10-2012, 11:29 AM   #502
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

I thought this was an interesting comment, from Pendlay:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendlay
My question for all of you would be this, are percentages more of a description for what has happened, or, more of a prescription for what should happen?
Chicken or egg.

EDIT -

Also, comparing Russian to Bulgarian Training (as stereotypes) stuff:

Russian Training usually use percentages of maximum/competition lifts. Typical loading is doubles at 80% or so. Loading is waved very prescribed, so training is highly planned to avoid any over fatigue.

Bulgarian Training usually uses a 'daily max' which can be anywhere within 10% of an all time max, so around 90% ish. Singles are done there followed by back offs at 10% less. Training is not highly planned, over fatigue is prevented by a natural fluctuation. Lifters being lifters they might take weight too heavy too much, so there's more skill involved here.

Basically when put like that, it doesn't look all that different.

Last edited by Fazc; 03-10-2012 at 11:40 AM.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 11:59 AM   #503
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,799
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
I thought this was an interesting comment, from Pendlay:



Chicken or egg.

EDIT -

Also, comparing Russian to Bulgarian Training (as stereotypes) stuff:

Russian Training usually use percentages of maximum/competition lifts. Typical loading is doubles at 80% or so. Loading is waved very prescribed, so training is highly planned to avoid any over fatigue.

Bulgarian Training usually uses a 'daily max' which can be anywhere within 10% of an all time max, so around 90% ish. Singles are done there followed by back offs at 10% less. Training is not highly planned, over fatigue is prevented by a natural fluctuation. Lifters being lifters they might take weight too heavy too much, so there's more skill involved here.

Basically when put like that, it doesn't look all that different.
That's a gem. Lot of info in that small nugget.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 01:35 PM   #504
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Despite 50 pages of this thread and subsequent research, this is an eye-opener! From another thread, a lifter who supposedly trained with Abadijev:

Quote:
The one basic principle is to always max on the competition movement for one repetition and then do one assistant movement for doubles or triples.
The other just as basic principle is to divide daily volume into parts ,so that for one competitive movement there is one training session and for the next competitive movement of the day,you train on another session (one competition movement-one session).
There is no "no daily max",no doubles or triples for the competition movement,no rep work,no percentages...if you do the competition movement,you max...if you do assistance you don't max,ever.

So,Monday would look like this ,assuming you train for powerlifting and the competition movements are the squat/bench/deadlift:

Monday:

Training session 1:
Back squat :to daily max,going up through 8-10 sets,max out,stay with max for 5-8 sets (of 1rep)
Good morning or front squat :6 sets of 2.

rest 1 hour.

Training session 2 :

Bench press: max out for the day through 8-10 sets,stay with the max for 6-8 sets.
Wide or close grip bench press: 6-8 sets of 2.

rest for 1 hour.


Training session 3 :

Deadlift : max out through 8-10 sets ,stay with max for 6-8 sets.
Stiff legged deadlifts,sumo deadlifts of good mornings :6 sets of 2.

End of day 1.
Quote:
Please understand i have shared training halls with Bulgarian weightlifters in the past and many other weightlifters training under Bulgarian coaches directions.For me this system isn't a picture on a website.

I do realize this system is impossible for a non professional to follow,but this is what this system is about-it was developed to be followed by professionals...so the changes to be made in order for a normal person to follow it should be so vast that the system is destroyed.

I don't know how reading about the Bulgarian system has changed your programmes but what you have outlied a Bulgarian system is not.

I have never seen a lifter max out on anything like the squat or front squat -in fact i had seen many times coaches not letting the athletes put more weight on the bar when going for triples when the last set was quite easy.

This is a fundamental difference with the Russian system,the Russians often had 360 and 400k squats and maxed squatting till their eyes bled,Bulgarians only did this with the competition movements of close to these exercises (like power snatch and clean).
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 01:38 PM   #505
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Again, this is quite different to what is normally attributed to Abadijev and is the account of just one guy, but interesting nonetheless:

Quote:
This is a good article,describes pretty well what the Abadjiev method is.
To help with understanding this method ,i should add the following:

1) In a technical event,even if the body has reached muscular and nervous exhaustion as it can be measured by a variety of ways,there's still the value of doing the movement for your maximum that day.
So even if a method such as TRAC tells you you're about to have a heart attack,in the long run doing 10 sets of snatches going to your day's max will help you with the snatch,as crazy as this sounds...

2)This system was developed as a national system,to produce as many medals as possible.
It was NOT made to make the best out of every trainee.10 4th places mean nothing,one bronze medal is a huge success.
This wasn't meant to be a mass training system but an elitist one.

The athletes don't hire the coach,they come to the coach to see if they can be top athletes,not to improve fitness-if they can't be top level athletes they're thrown out of the lifting room and aren't allowed back.
You have to see the system in its larger political,ethical and cultural context-in communist countries there was NO hobby sport,sports was a profession,you had to be top or find another job.
Hobby sports like bodybuilding were ridiculed and mostly still are today as they were considered the home of the failures of all other professional sports.It was considered fooling around like the infants do in the playground.

3)Although this system did have many failures and injuries,the screening method that was used to determine the talented, although cruel, was correct as success in every sport is determined by all the qualities needed to finish these training camps-great recovery,superb technical adaptation,good performance ,and high result to effort ratio.
The political/ethical/cultural context may have failed some athletes but they succeeded to be top athletes under the same system or under other training systems because their talent was recognized successfully.
Example : Under this system but not in Bulgaria ,it has produced the only 4, 3gold medal winners in Olympics (Dimas,Kakhiashvilli,Suleymanoglou,Mutlu) and countless single gold Olympics winners and 2 timers like Rezazadeh of Iran.
Perhaps the results were better outside of Bulgaria because there were more resources and better conditions for performance.
Others,in Bulgaria training under a different system like Boevski also reached the top because the screening method was correct.

This is no method for self improvement of anyone and i doubt that it could be modified to accomodate the less gifted.
Quote:
With all due respect Broz and Mendez' supposed greatness is restricted to youtube only.

With a 200k snatch in training and a 210k clean and jerk because of wrist problems he hardly is a major medal candidate at least for now.I remember in 96 Barnett was quite a good lifter as was Hamman afterwards-please don't diss acomplished lifters so easily because someone might appear with good gym lifts under obvious heavy "adaptogen" use.If Mendez is sponsored then it's more than obvious that all this hype is geared towards keeping his sponsors and giving back to them via publicity so there's a direct interest on maintaining this hype.My opinion is that this hype will end the very moment he steps on an international platform under tested conditions... Let' give credit where credit is due...

As for the system Broz uses it obviously has great Bulgarian method inluences but it looks it's much more permanent in the way stress is posed on the lifters-the Abadjiev system was a system of high intensity periods but of brief duration,not year round in order to avoid irreversible exhaustion and injury. To put it in the terms he uses himself in the article posted here,the wolf has to rest and eat and sleep sometime,he cannot run and chase rabits all day long all year long...
Quote:
I have knowledge by training in the same training hall with elite weightlifters of countries using the Bulgarian system or close derivatives (Bulgarian Greek and Iranian weightlifters) .Most of this system is anecdotal as it is the sole product of a mind of one person who kept the "copyright" by sharing with a very select few.What would come next many times susprised many of his own athletes as he had a way of recognizing technical issues or recovery issues he hardly shared.For example he could have 2 athletes lifting in the same category,about to compete in the same meet,using the same weights more or less and have one max out for 3 sets and the other for 20.After a while one could see some logic but the underlying concept was never really shared and that's why he was called "the fox".

Of course this system was based on the use of banned substances,this is why these camps were in hard to find places and not even the families of the athletes knew where they were,and this is how an athlete snatching for maintainance 130 kilos would lift 180 after 7 weeks.This is another reason why the system was never formally known by many-if you knew the system you would know when to search for the athletes.

I hardly believe anyone can approach world class levels without any banned substance help just because for the last 50 years all records have been set with banned substance help,but i don't think this discussion should take place here.The last comment i'm going to make here is that common sense should prevail above and beyond what some coach can say about his group-Abadjiev after having his whole team disqualified from 2 Olympics (and after at least 3 of his byproduct groups Greece,Turkey and Iran were disqualified as whole teams too) still swears that he has never given his athletes any banned substance and that according to his knowledge nobody he ever trained ever took anything banned...
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 03:04 PM   #506
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,799
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Just pulling some quotes from above that I found interesting.

Quote:
In a technical event,even if the body has reached muscular and nervous exhaustion as it can be measured by a variety of ways,there's still the value of doing the movement for your maximum that day.
Any idea what defines a "technical event"? I assume it means Olympic lifts and not things such as back squats.

Quote:
3)Although this system did have many failures and injuries,the screening method that was used to determine the talented, although cruel, was correct as success in every sport is determined by all the qualities needed to finish these training camps-great recovery,superb technical adaptation,good performance ,and high result to effort ratio.
Injuries to some talented athletes was an acceptable outcome if the end result was country victory for one or two. Sound right?

Quote:
This is no method for self improvement of anyone and i doubt that it could be modified to accomodate the less gifted.
Have to chew on this a while.

Quote:
With all due respect Broz and Mendez' supposed greatness is restricted to youtube only.
Crunch.

Quote:
As for the system Broz uses it obviously has great Bulgarian method inluences but it looks it's much more permanent in the way stress is posed on the lifters-the Abadjiev system was a system of high intensity periods but of brief duration,not year round in order to avoid irreversible exhaustion and injury.
The gem of the bunch. Broz called me an idiot a few years back for not having belief that his programming was sustainable. I feel somewhat better now.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 03:08 PM   #507
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,799
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
The one basic principle is to always max on the competition movement for one repetition and then do one assistant movement for doubles or triples.
So the back off work is not the prime movement. Interesting. I wonder what constitutes an assistance movement? It's it's nearly dead nuts close to the prime movement, would that be acceptable? Say squats and then wide stance box squats? Or deadlift then RDLs?

Quote:
The other just as basic principle is to divide daily volume into parts ,so that for one competitive movement there is one training session and for the next competitive movement of the day,you train on another session (one competition movement-one session).
Right up my alley. I hate deads and squats on the same day.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 06:50 PM   #508
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Interesting points.

I think injury was just an accepted way to train, the Max Aita interview talks about that. Fatigue makes you efficient, and injuries occur when form breaks which again reinforce the need for good form. So you either lift it in good form or don't, if you push that you will get injured. I can see the appeal.

In regards to splitting up the days work, due to frequency and specificity demands they'd certainly have to be done on the same day. But he's saying they would be done with a 30 minute break between them.

Not massively sure how reliable this source is, it certainly runs very counter to what's out there on the *Bulgers*.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 07:07 PM   #509
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,799
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2583792
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

I do find the idea of using an assistance exercise for back off sets interesting. Interesting way of training weaknesses.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 07:13 PM   #510
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I do find the idea of using an assistance exercise for back off sets interesting. Interesting way of training weaknesses.
Totally, even just 1-2 sets it doesn't have to be the full 6. I know Tom Martin recommends SLDL as back off for Deadlift work and Pavel recommends what he calls SV exercises (I think) for back off work from the main lift.

Pretty sure Paul Anderson did the same thing with Squats and GMs. At my strongest raw I would generally go to a max squat and back off with GMs.

Good way to go if you're doing 1 top single I'd say.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
increasing, strength


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Increasing weight smalldon Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 5 06-02-2012 08:32 AM
Increasing strength during a cut MVP Powerlifting & Strength Training 3 03-12-2012 10:54 AM
Increasing testoserone levels jack3d Nutrition, Diet and Supplements 8 01-15-2012 01:32 AM
Increasing your bench! sneezingstardust Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 15 04-28-2010 06:36 AM
Increasing Deadlift Strength TitanWIP Powerlifting & Strength Training 22 12-23-2009 12:02 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.