Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Training Resources
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Training Resources Workouts, Form Videos, Muscle and Strength Training Articles...everything you need. Forum includes the best posts from the forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-19-2011, 09:23 AM   #91
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Right now it is important that I "get used to" 85-90% plus weight. Because I am doing this now, I am wondering if waves are even needed.
Interesting thoughts Steve thanks for that.

I found the article very thought provoking actually. You and I are doing frequent training and continually hammering away with 90%+ weight set after set. However by and large I don't see a lot of this within these types of lifting schedules. I have seen more modern examples of working up to a top weight and then backing off, Siders, Broz, Perryman, Pendlay, Bulgarians etc.

The way we're doing it would certainly seem to be more tiring than hitting a weight and backing off, or waving a weight up and down slowly as ultimately you will be hitting your top weight more often.

There is the strong counter-point to that from Hepburn/Ditillo of course that we'd have to consider.

But are multiple sets across what's needed in powerlifting? We lift relatively slow, grinding lifts, certainly compared to a Snatch or C&J. One could argue the need for more *reserve* is higher in powerlifting.

I highlighted what you said at the end about our particular circumstances. Both you and I wanted to spend more time with 90%+ weights on our backs and overloads as well to make the feel of a max attempt lighter straight out of the rack. So perhaps for now multiple sets across suit that need better?

Or would we accomplish that anyway with the overload exercise that we have included?
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-19-2011, 11:25 AM   #92
Pull14
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 3,581, Level: 37 Points: 3,581, Level: 37 Points: 3,581, Level: 37
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
 
Pull14's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Jersey, US
Posts: 1,117
Training Type: Fullbody
Reputation: 32208
Pull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machinePull14 is a lifting machine
Default

Like the article and think it makes perfect sense, but from a different prospective. Keep in mind that this article has a heavy focus on the Olympic lifts, where technique plays a much larger role.

With strength, less experience lifters need more volume because the intensities they are capable of pushing still isn't very high and with that, they can recover from the volume easier. An 90% attempt from a novice doesn't do as much to the body as a 90% attempt from an advanced guy. The less experienced also, like the article suggested, needs more practice with the lifts - max attempts are impossible to correct if mid-intensity technique sucks, anyone can have perfect technique with an empty bar because it doesn't present a challenge. Same weight on the bar also presents no changes, allowing more focus on technique.

In regards to the waves, Steve, with strength being the focus, keeping reps low is the way to go. With the slow lifts, that wave method is pretty popular for squats... Work up to a heavy single, drop down for 3-4 triples, work back up to another single, drop back down for several sets of 3-5 reps. The aim of the second single is to lift a bit more weight than the first single.

Not only does the wave add volume and practice with technique but also the variation "primes" the mind/cns for another heavy attempt. Keep in mind this is with training maxs/daily maxes which will probably fall somewhere closer to 90% of 1RM give or take some.

I'd be curious to see how that works with upper body lifts... IMO upper body fatigues easily and probably won't be able to handle something like that unless the daily ma is a bit lower a percentage.

Edit - with the wave, I've also seen work up to single down for three heavy triples or doubles, drop down again for a few light singles and doubles, back UP for 3 heavy triples. The aim for the second grouping of triples is an attempt to get a little heavier...

1x405
3x3x365
1x295
1x325
3x3x375

Last edited by Pull14; 11-19-2011 at 11:34 AM.
Pull14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 09:49 AM   #93
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Right now I feel dropping weight would serve little purpose. One could argue that if allows a practicing of form while the CNS is primed and a weight feels lighter, and that certainly is true. But I am getting enough form practice as it is with the heavy sets.

I think the sheer volume of heavy work each month will serve me well.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 10:52 AM   #94
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Edit - with the wave, I've also seen work up to single down for three heavy triples or doubles, drop down again for a few light singles and doubles, back UP for 3 heavy triples. The aim for the second grouping of triples is an attempt to get a little heavier...

1x405
3x3x365
1x295
1x325
3x3x375
I've seen Poliquin suing heavy and lighter work, but I can't remember the reason he was talking about this approach. I would have to find the article again.

Maybe it was CNS-focused.

From time to time I recommend to folks to do a heavy walkout and hold or two prior to a lighter 1RM attempt.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #95
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 150539
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

There is some good info to be found here. The Russians have done a lot of work that is quite useful.

http://sportivnypress.com/documents/75.html
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 11:12 AM   #96
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Right now I feel dropping weight would serve little purpose. One could argue that if allows a practicing of form while the CNS is primed and a weight feels lighter, and that certainly is true. But I am getting enough form practice as it is with the heavy sets.

I think the sheer volume of heavy work each month will serve me well.
Yep, I don't think I'll be dropping the weight to back off either. Instinctively I don't like the idea of a max(ish) single followed by back offs.

Having said that I think you Steve have a bit of both worlds with your second week when you titrate upto a max. You do sacrifice some progression I feel since you don't get to repeat and better your performance in the second week, but at least you get to max.

All in all I think these are relatively minor things but it's interesting to get yours and Pull's feedback on it.

GL: Very interesting link, reading the rest of it now.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 12:35 PM   #97
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
You do sacrifice some progression I feel since you don't get to repeat and better your performance in the second week, but at least you get to max.
Are you talking on squats and deads? Would microloading the second week be viable?

I guess I am trying to better understand when you feel it is best to challenge myself. I do try to go for a new max on bench during week 2, but for squats and deadlifts I was planning on adding weight at the start of week 1.

You think it would be better to add weight week 2 instead? Or challenge myself with more than just a weight addition?

Right now I have added 10 pounds to my squat singles day, 5 pounds per 3 week cycle. I started with 450 x 5 x 1, and today hit 460 x 5 x 1.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 11-20-2011 at 01:48 PM.
BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 02:34 PM   #98
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Are you talking on squats and deads? Would microloading the second week be viable?
It's not a bad thing, every variation in lifting is a trade off. In this case it's a very small trade off.

You know I was very happy with your choice when you mentioned it because it does give you an accurate maximum single at least every 3 weeks and that is valuable to gauge progress. You see I don't get that. So my particular rep scheme (sets across) trades off for that, I don't get to max out. But that's a trade off I'm willing to make so have more chances to progress on the multiple singles. For the past 3 Squat sessions I started at 200kg, went 205 and today 210, BUT the bad thing is I haven't tested my max or lifted a max single which has benefits of it's own. Sure I think my max is going up, but I don't know for certain and I don't get the benefits of a max single. It's a trade off.

I like your plan Steve, our particular variations will trade off benefits with losses but overall I don't see it making a massive difference. Eventually I may even switch to something like that in the second week if progression gets too difficult or I feel like a change just as you have the option to switch to sets across all the time when you feel you've had enough of the max singles.

And let's face it, you just Benched a whopping 200kg+. I think it's working! These minor details would never make a massive difference.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 03:58 PM   #99
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,944
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

I was trying to understand what you thought might be better as far as weeks to test yourself...week 1 or 2.

I am thinking about testing myself on squat singles on the final rep for AMAP, am wanted to see if you thought week 1 or 2 would be better. I am thinking week 2.

I want to use an AMAP set to help better gauge my singles progress.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2011, 04:23 PM   #100
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
I was trying to understand what you thought might be better as far as weeks to test yourself...week 1 or 2.

I am thinking about testing myself on squat singles on the final rep for AMAP, am wanted to see if you thought week 1 or 2 would be better. I am thinking week 2.

I want to use an AMAP set to help better gauge my singles progress.
Sorry I might have got the wrong end of the stick there, post-workout euphoria an' all.

I agree week 2 would be best/safest.

I've come across the term a couple times, AMAP, but never really looked into what it is. What is it?
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
increasing, strength


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Increasing weight smalldon Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 5 06-02-2012 08:32 AM
Increasing strength during a cut MVP Powerlifting & Strength Training 3 03-12-2012 10:54 AM
Increasing testoserone levels jack3d Nutrition, Diet and Supplements 8 01-15-2012 01:32 AM
Increasing your bench! sneezingstardust Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 15 04-28-2010 06:36 AM
Increasing Deadlift Strength TitanWIP Powerlifting & Strength Training 22 12-23-2009 12:02 PM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.