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Old 11-26-2009, 09:14 AM   #1
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Default Full Body Workout Design and H L M Cycling

I want to talk about full body approaches and the cycling of intensity. Here are some example:

Casey Butt recommends an HLM approach on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Rep schemes are generally around 5, 10 and 15...and different movement types for the same muscle group are generally used. For example...on chest, (H) might be bench press, (L) might be flyes, and (M) might be dips.

Bill Starr's 5x5 uses HLM, but his approach is different. a Starr HLM for squat would be:

(H) 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5, 315x5
(L) 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 225x5
(M) 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5, 325x3, 225x8

Medium day actually has more volume.

----------------------------------------------------
NON HLM Full body approaches
----------------------------------------------------

Doug Hepburn recommends two program variations, Program A and Program B. Program rep approaches in Program A move from heavy 2's to heavy 3's. Program rep approaches in Program B move from 5 heavy singles to 8 heavy singles. Hypertrophy work is also done on A and B.

Doug did NOT advocate HLM. He generally hit squats three times a week (MWF) and Bench on MF. He used a "slow grind" progressional method from workout to workout:

Program A
Workout 1: 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2
Workout 2: 3/2/2/2/2/2/2/2

Program B
Workout 1: 1/1/1/1/1
Workout 2: 1/1/1/1/1/1


----------------------------------------------------
Value of HLM
----------------------------------------------------

Obviously, Hepburn made great progress with a non HLM approach. Doug Christy uses 2 day routines without repeating exercises, and doesn't HLM. And obviously, many trainees make great progress WITH HLM approaches.

My questions are: (for full body routines)

1) Do you feel HLM is necessary?
2) Do you feel non-HLM approaches should be more then 2 days per week?
3) Do you feel using the same exercise (like Starr) or different exercises (like Butt) is a better HLM approach?
4) Do you prefer an HLM approach to vary reps (like Butt), or to vary sets (like Starr)?
5) What are your overall thoughts on full body routine design/structure?
6) How do you feel newbs should train?

Caveat...What I'm hoping to achieve in this thread is to create a discussion on full body workout design. It's not a topic often discussed. Please do not hesitate to interject personal opinion or experiences.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:10 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
I My questions are: (for full body routines)

1) Do you feel HLM is necessary?
2) Do you feel non-HLM approaches should be more then 2 days per week?
3) Do you feel using the same exercise (like Starr) or different exercises (like Butt) is a better HLM approach?
4) Do you prefer an HLM approach to vary reps (like Butt), or to vary sets (like Starr)?
5) What are your overall thoughts on full body routine design/structure?
6) How do you feel newbs should train?
I think all of the approaches you talk about are good. They can and should be used, depending on the cycle your on, and your level of fitness.

Now to address your specific questions.


1) Do you feel HLM is necessary?

Yes. When utilizing a program of 3 days a week sessions. Whether an aba, bab or a straight program of the same movements. Cycling intensity allows for recovery from week to week.

2) Do you feel non-HLM approaches should be more then 2 days per week? Depends on the individual, and their level of conditioning, but, yes it can be more than 2 days a week. It can also be dependant on the movements choosen. Now we get into an overlap with question 1.

3) Do you feel using the same exercise (like Starr) or different exercises (like Butt) is a better HLM approach?

Both work. The key is to stick with one until it quits working, and then make changes. It's important to define your goal, and choose the right approach
in the first place.

4) Do you prefer an HLM approach to vary reps (like Butt), or to vary sets (like Starr)?
Both. It depends on what I may be having a problem with. They are tools for you to use. However, you don't have to use every tool every session. For the most part though, I tend to use rep progression more than weight. It's simpler during the course of a session, requiring less plate changes.

5) What are your overall thoughts on full body routine design/structure? As a general statement, I've come to this thought.

Wholebody routines, are more complex, and require more thought process than splits. Working the body as a whole system during a session offers advantages that are not matched by long term complex splits. CNS conditioning, and overall workload capacity being just an example.


6) How do you feel newbs should train?

Wholebody, strength based to build a solid foundation. Forget about size for now. Build the foundation. Perfect your movement form, and then down the road work for size as wanted. A good plan, and a solid work ethic, and in three years you will be big. Stick to a plan, and don't jump around every other week.


I've probably missed a few things, but thats my basic thoughts.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
1) Do you feel HLM is necessary?
Yes, once the lifter is past the noob stage. Also, I think this might be skipped in favor of linear progression if the lifter is coming back to lifting after a significant time off, just to catch up with the old strength levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
2) Do you feel non-HLM approaches should be more then 2 days per week?
For the genetically average, 2x a week of heavy training is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
3) Do you feel using the same exercise (like Starr) or different exercises (like Butt) is a better HLM approach?
Starr all the way if strength is the over-riding goal. Getting better at a lift has a lot to do with practicing the lift - especially the explosive ones like cleans. If bodybuilding is the goal, probably Butt's approach is the better one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
4) Do you prefer an HLM approach to vary reps (like Butt), or to vary sets (like Starr)?
Depends on my goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
5) What are your overall thoughts on full body routine design/structure?
Training should be in accordance with experience, ability and goals. So there isnt anything set in stone. The one thing I would keep fixed (unless coming back from a lay off) is intensity cycling, i.e. follow the H/L/M principle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
6) How do you feel newbs should train?
Full-body, there's no doubt. I would suggest doing basic exercises (as opposed to only compound exercises) to start off with. I personally would like to see a reasonably high rep range for first 3-4 months of training. Noob gains are the most during this period, and my feeling is its a good time to build up work tolerance and make gains in terms of weight progression at relatively higher rep ranges (8-10). I would also suggest starting off with 1 work set of each exercise (so, may be 8-9 total), and over a course of 4-5 months build up to a stage where he can handle 3 worksets of each of the 8-9 exercises.

Good BASIC exercises in my list would be -

Overhead press
Bench Press
Skull crusher
Deadlift
Barbell row
Barbell curl
Squats
Standing calf raises

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
Caveat...What I'm hoping to achieve in this thread is to create a discussion on full body workout design. It's not a topic often discussed. Please do not hesitate to interject personal opinion or experiences.
Its hard for anyone to say what works best for noobs based on personal experience. Unless they are on a horrible program right off the bat, then they stay a noob only once

Nevertheless, my first source of bodybuilding information was Gold's Gym book of bodybuilding, and my first routine was this -

1. Bench Press
2. Military Press
3. Barbell Rows
4. Shrugs
5. Skull crushers
6. Barbell curl
7. Squats
8. Standing calf raise

All exercise done 2 sets of 10 reps (one light weight warm up, and the other a work set). The only exception was calves, where I used 20 reps.

I also think to build a good full-body routine, it might be beneficial to look at some good splits. One awesome split I tried so far is Fred Hatfield's routine, a lot of which is based on Russian lifting ideas.

Cliffs of Hatfield's workout - 3 different types of workout for each muscle. Workout "A" is recovery workout, done 10 x 10 with no more than 60%RM, less if need be. Workout "B" combines multiple rep ranges - 3 work sets each in the 5, 12 and 40 rep range. This is the bread and butter workout. Workout "C" requires you to do only 1 or 2 sets - but these sets are giant sets, and to be used very sparingly.

To some extent, the use of multiple rep ranges and exercise selection according to the rep range is in line with Casey Butt's ideas. If bodybuilding is the goal, I think it makes sense to use the advantageous features of multiple rep ranges.

... but again, NOT something that beginner's or in most cases, even intermediates need consider.

Last edited by kitarpyar; 11-26-2009 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 11-26-2009, 05:47 PM   #4
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Great posts guys.

I have Hatfield's book where he details the ABC style protocol. It's an interesting approach, to be sure. I always wanted to try it. But the implementation is a nightmare.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:42 PM   #5
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a lot of it has to do with just knowing your body. there are times when I'll go to the gym and when i do an exercise it is just feeling right. I mean the pump is good, you are hitting the muscle correctluy and you just plain feel strong. When this happens I will take both the reps and the weight up as far as it can go. when I am whooped and only doing a couple of reps i wll cut the weight in 1/2 and do another giant set for a complete burn and fatigue. I will then cut out a different exercise. maybe I'm gonna try do do a couple of sets of db flat, incline, and decline bench. By the time I get to the declines I'm tired and really struggling so I will just stop b4 getting hurt. The next time I come to chest day though I will hit them first. It also depends on what is going on at my gym and how busy it is. I have 3 exercises I can do as back ups if need be.
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Old 11-27-2009, 07:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
Great posts guys.

I have Hatfield's book where he details the ABC style protocol. It's an interesting approach, to be sure. I always wanted to try it. But the implementation is a nightmare.
I agree. I was able to implement it for 5 weeks, and then had to stuff - too tough juggling real life and a routine like that - but I have to admit it was good while it lasted.

I think folks should take his comment about the routine being for those who REALLY are serious bodybuilders seriously (serious bodybuilders as in pros or top-ranked amateurs).
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by kitarpyar View Post
I agree. I was able to implement it for 5 weeks, and then had to stuff - too tough juggling real life and a routine like that - but I have to admit it was good while it lasted.

I think folks should take his comment about the routine being for those who REALLY are serious bodybuilders seriously (serious bodybuilders as in pros or top-ranked amateurs).
You hit on the exact point why no one (outside of me and you) know his ABC system. If you miss a day, depending on the individual, you might have to re-calculate your workout structure for the next month.

BTW, I posted several workouts by CS Sloan in the articles section of the forum. Anyone know if he was before or after Starr, because the workouts look close. The advanced workouts are HLM.

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/art...c-s-sloan.html
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:24 AM   #8
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Default Some more thoughts.

There is a lot that can be talked about with this thread. So much that it could fill a book with all of the different permutations of possibility's.

Some people say we have not learned that much about wholebody workout programs since the 1940's and 1950's. I just don't see that as being correct. As has been discussed in some other threads recently, both here, and on other sites, it has been shown we have learned a lot.

I have the opinion that complex splits are not the best course for most people, until they have reached a certain level of muscle maturity in their development. Even at that stage I still think that a smaller split is appropriate in most cases. The 5 or 6 day split is really a specialist program, and needed in only the most advanced trainees for detail work.

The same can be said for wholebody training. There are levels of progression that are appropriate for beginners through advanced.

A typical beginner workout program from the Golden age.

Cleans.................... 1x20
Press... ...................1x10
Bench.. ...................1x10
Rows.......................1x10
Reverse curl............ 1x10
Regular curl .............1x10
Squats ..................1x10
Pullover ..................1x10
Good mornings .........1x10
breathing lateral raise 1x10


This was performed 3x a week on nonconsecutive days, ie: M-W-F.

After a period two months of single sets, you would increase to two sets per session, and after a few months at that level you would increase to 3 sets. The 3x10 was a fairly popular pattern, as well as the 3x8-12.

Today we would have a beginner typically work the, "Starting Strength" template as written by Mark Ripptoe, or maybe Bill Starrs, 5x5 program. These programs typically split movement overlaps into two workouts, while still giving a wholebody workout. This is the typical A/B program approach.

Both of those programs are the result of years of insight into basic barbell, and strength training. So this is where we have made good progress into wholebody training. The original template can, and does still work, but the 5x5programs offers some advantages in strength in the short term. Your going to need strength if you want to build big.

An aspect of the old methods that I find we have gotten away from is the importance of shoulder training. The standing press was for many years given a higher order of importance over bench pressing. I feel that this is correct. This is due to the complexity, and importance of good shoulder development for overall strength. I personally put shoulder training over bench pressing in my own workouts.

The progression from beginner to intermediate used to be after you had worked out for at least several months, maybe 3-4. At that point you would call yourself an intermediate. Today we typically use the linear progression ladder as a benchmark tool. We know that new trainee's can make nearly exponential gains when they first start working out. This won't last forever, and it is at the point where we see a drop off in advancement, that we call them an intermediate.

It is at this point where the typical H-L-M approach can be used with much success to keep a gaining momemtum happening. This momemtum has a lifespan though, and it is dying quickly if your working out properly, and with as much efficency as possible.

It's as this point where you need to really understand about natural limits, and the rate of muscular gains. It's at this point that we now get into advanced intermediate training.

What I have talked about is my opinion of how I have understood the work of
other people who have done much research on this subject.

The main authors that I have read for most of this info are.

Dr. Casey Butt,
Casey Butt

The WeighTrainer - Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Weightlifting, Strength Training, Nutrition

Stuart McRobert,
Amazon.com: Beyond Brawn: The Insider's Encyclopedia on How to Build Muscle & Might (9789963616060): Stuart McRobert: Books

Natural Bodybuilding Magazine

John Christy
http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/pow...on-thread.html

John Christy's Real Strength Real Muscle

Last edited by glwanabe; 11-30-2009 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:36 AM   #9
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Your point on shoulder training is an important one. When I approach my training, I look at it from the lens of the "big 4":

Bench Press
Overhead Press
Squat
Deadlift

Of course, I'm including variations of these exercises.

I am NOT a big fan of the side, front, rear lateral mania that currently exists with bodybuilding splits. A solid approach to pressing, and cleaning covers the bulk of shoulder training.

At times I have attempted to do the "lateral 3", in an attempt to see if I was missing something. I wasn't. I think side and front laterals might be the biggest waste of time out of any isolation exercises, though I reserve the right to be wrong.

In general, I think these movements are popular simply because:

A) Modern bodybuilding wrongly over-emphasizes exercise variation.
B) There aren't many quality, mass-building shoulder exercises available.

Heavy bench and overhead pressing are really all I've ever done. This year I've added upright rows and Arnold presses for fun and variety, but then again, I was implementing them in a split system.

With regards to volume, the old timers really believed in gradual conditioning. Most programs didn't throw someone right into the fire.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Your point on should training is an important one. When I approach my training, I look at it from the lens of the "big 4":

Bench Press
Overhead Press
Squat
Deadlift

Of course, I'm including variations of these exercises.

Include bent rows in your list, and you have the recipe for serious size. It just does not require all of the different moves that some people do to build a good solid body. There are reasons to do other moves, but those reasons are to strengthen weak links in the chain. The chain is different for each person based on their own body stucture. That is another aspect of advanced routine programming, working the weak links, to strengthen the whole.



Code:
A) Modern bodybuilding wrongly over-emphasizes exercise variation.
B) There aren't many quality, mass-building shoulder exercises available.
Exercise variation is overused as a reason why a person has stopped progressing. This whole BS about shocking a muscle is just that, BS.
Add weight to the bar and see what happens. It may be that your not progressing because you have come to a point that you need to work a synergist muscle more as part of that weak chain aspect. This is where having a balanced wholebody approach can keep you progressing for a longer time before it becomes necessary to isolate a synergist muscle as part of that weak link.



Quote:
With regards to volume, the old timers really believed in gradual conditioning. Most programs didn't throw someone right into the fire.

This is another aspect that needs to be talked about. I read so many who write about the fact that they just could not do an old time wholebody routine. Of course they can't. Not just jumping right into it anyway. It takes some time for your body to condition to the workoad. It can however be done. Everybody used to train this way, and not eveybody did 3x week. It was often talked about that for some people, 2x week was plenty.

The 2x week pattern is still presribed today by John Christy.


Hows that old saying go? If it isn't broke, don't fix it. To many people think that they need to change for change sake. The best change you can make to your program is to keep adding weight.
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