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Old 11-27-2009, 11:26 AM   #11
chess315
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I used that workout more then any other I really dont feel the h-l-m is really needed unless your already failry strong. I would also use it like a hit program to warm up and do an all out set and if it was a low rep set I might do another lighter set just do have more time under tension.
I do think if your fairlt advanced it make since to sometimes use other movements like chin and oh presses and so forth
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:59 PM   #12
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I do think if your fairlt advanced it make since to sometimes use other movements like chin and oh presses and so forth
What shoulder movement do you recommend for non-advanced trainees then?
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:42 PM   #13
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standing military for totoal strenght or seated for more isolation I like seated dumbells a lot but I know they are not as good as standing miltary for total body power. But they are easier on recovery. Its a constant battel between doing enough to grow but not to much

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Old 11-27-2009, 08:46 PM   #14
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I started bech,row,squat I never liked squating first then I can row 250 with good form whne doing it often but after peaking I strated experminting with curl grip chind cause you can really move lots of weights and even curl grip pulldowns after studying mike menzters consolidation routines he really loved that movent and I do belive in it because when your hips are confined it even brings upper chest and abs into play. But the madcow or starr is only a 6 week program even they recommen reprograming. by changing rep pattern.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:51 PM   #15
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the madcow program is in imo the absloute best for someone trying to build strenght at first I dont thin linar perdozation is need for someone beching 200 and squating 250 the should recover no matter what its low enough volume a few years ago I mad print outs of the madcow and would give them to people his nutrtion advice is great to. Even if you have no plans on doing them programs they are required reading. That madcow is something else he makes it simple.
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:23 AM   #16
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I dont thin linar perdozation is need for someone beching 200 and squating 250 the should recover no matter what
I assume you're saying that they should just push for as many reps and as much weight as possible?
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:38 AM   #17
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But the madcow or starr is only a 6 week program even they recommen reprograming. by changing rep pattern.
Those programs are not 6 week programs.

The program is designed to be run until you can no longer make linear progression. Throughout the program you will stall, and have to reset you weights to make new runs at the PR's. This is to be expected.

Even when you have slowed to the point of no longer working the program as you did at the start, there is still the H-L-M aspect that then will keep you setting new worksets roughly weekly.

It really only requires small changes to the program to keep progressing for a long time with these programs. The time span can vary, but it could ber as much as a two years with proper work ethic, and constantly pushing for progression.


Far to many people stop these programs when they have lots of room left to make gains, and they themselves shortchange themselves from the gains they seek. They want to move onto something not labled as a beginner routine. Their ego is as big an enemy as not putting more weight on the bar.

People just need to remember three words. "Progression is King". As long as your doing that, then keep doing what your doing.

With the Ripptoe program or the Starr program. Like all other things in life, when all else fails, read the directions.

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Old 11-28-2009, 06:18 PM   #18
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Regarding linear progression and "stalling". I am against jumping ship on a program because you have a few "stalls."

I have bad workouts (per exercise) at least once a month, and sometimes twice in a row. If you feel you're stalling, take a day and do something different. Do 8 sets of 3 reps with heavy weight. Or have a back off day.

The basic exercises need to be used, no matter what. I mention this because of the "doggcrapp"/bodybuilding mentality that when an exercise stalls, you do a new program with different exercises.

Of course, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try something different. Powerlifters are masters at exercise variation. But if their bench stalls, they don't switch to flyes.

Whatever you do, stay heavy. Stalls happen. If your bench is stalling with 170, maybe you need to consider the possibility that your diet sucks...or that you're doing too much...or that you're wasting too much time doing pec dec, flyes and cable crossovers. Sometimes a focus on the primary lifts, and getting reps in with that primary lift, is the key to pushing past barriers.

I get strongest on the bench by benching. I used to do many bench variations, but now I prefer to stick with the bench itself, and play with reps and rest.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:54 PM   #19
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I dont thin linar perdozation is need for someone beching 200 and squating 250
Just like MAB, I'm wondering if you're promoting just going for it as much as possible. I think you are. I don't see the point either of not "going for it" if you lifts are weak.

I also think that stalling like MAB says is blown out of proportion. So many guys fear it and start yelling muscle confusion. It's a siilly concept to me. I was reading about Paul Anderson on the forum and it's apparent that a lot of these old guys just stuck with the basics their entire life.
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:04 PM   #20
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An approach I like is to progress linear fashion until I wont be able to keep upping the weight. At that point I just start adding a rep or two at my highest worksets. I then start a rep progression ladder to a predetermined point. When I've reached the rep goal , I'll reset, and make another run at a linear weight increase again. Old school and simple, but it works. You can make fairly large jumps with this method, but I prefer to make small jumps and continue with a weekly linear increase.

for instance, lets say you could jump 20lbs for a workset. I'd still only do 10, and give myself a little time to adjust to a much higher workweight. Making the big jump all at once may stall you out again sooner.
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