Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Training Resources

Notices

Training Resources Workouts, Form Videos, Muscle and Strength Training Articles...everything you need. Forum includes the best posts from the forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-24-2009, 09:23 PM   #11
kitarpyar
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94
Activity: 50% Activity: 50% Activity: 50%
 
kitarpyar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,723
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Reputation: 121086
kitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master member
Default

Not sure where to post this, since this isnt anything to do with full-body vs splits, but anyway, since I posted this part in the same thread in bb.com, in response to Casey's comment that drug free champs like Reg Parks put on upto 38 lbs of pure muscle over their lifting career, I think I will post it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitarpyar View Post
Interesting. Here's a hypothetical question. If someone starts off significantly under-weight, do you think they might be able to "beat" the numbers of, say Reg Parks, in the amount of muscle built (not necessarily the total bodyweight, just the amount of muscle mass added since he started weightlifting).

Using the calculator in your website, given my bone structure and height, my muscular potential is around 199.5lbs at 13.5% BF. Given that I started at 140 lbs, 15%BF, this would translate to a possible 50+ lbs increase in muscular weight (LBM from 119 to 172.5). And this is much more than what a genetically gifted champ like Parks achieved.

For the record, I am nowhere close to that limit, having gone from 140 @ 15% to 195 @ 20% at my heaviest and back to 175 @ 13.5% right now. But that is still a gain of 30 lbs of lean mass over 3 years and 1 without drugs and minimal supplementation. In fact, going by the calculator, I am around 87-88% of LBM predicted by the calculator at current levels of bodyfat. But given that Parks could add upto 38 lbs, 30 suddenly sounds a lot.

And to throw my hat in the mix, bulk of the 3 years of training has been full body between 45 minutes to 75 minutes training sessions, with some phases of split training thrown in
kitarpyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-24-2009, 10:28 PM   #12
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 
Extreme Mini Golf Champion!Tournaments Won: 6

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,695
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2578435
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

The underweight issue is a good one. The question becomes...when someone is underweight, what areas on the body is the weight missing from? Obviously some of the missing weight is muscle. I would wager that some is bone...bone density must be lacking to a degree. But that can't contribute to much?

I started at 145 myself, and wasn't near abs. Maybe had 15 to 18% bodyfat. I was a skinny fat guy. When I was in the military, which was a year off from training and I lost a lot of mass, I weight 172 with abs. That's a gain of 30 pounds of lean mass. But honestly, I didn't look very muscular. I was thin, fit and ripped.

I don't believe my 30+ lean gain was all muscle. I can't speak for you, because...like I said...I don't understand physiology to the point of knowing what takes place in the body during periods of being underweight.

I've seen 125 pound guys on bb.com state that they gained 60 pounds of muscle and are now 185.

Personally, when I look at Casey's calculations, I tend to analyze my own gains from a normalized, healthy body weight. My normal weight was around 170 at about 15% bodyfat. This was my post-military weight for several years, and falls within an "average" weight for my height. I was far from muscular at this weight. My picture below is at 170.

At 170 and 15% bodyfat, my base lean mass was 144.5. My lean mass for the last 10 years has been 178 to 179. So in essence, from a normalized weight, I've gained 34 to 35 pounds of muscle.

I hope I don't appear to be minimizing your progress...that is not my intention at all. I believe what you achieved is no easy feat! My only point in my long ramble was that I look at Casey's maximum potential referenced against a normalized weight.

Here is my at 170 at 15 to 18% bodyfat:

__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 12:13 AM   #13
Grim83
Director: TGZ
Max Brawn
Points: 6,663, Level: 53 Points: 6,663, Level: 53 Points: 6,663, Level: 53
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Grim83's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: alabama
Posts: 1,597
Reputation: 14693
Grim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributorGrim83 is a dedicated contributor
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
You'll get it. If not I've got a big stick to poke you with.
Homoeroticism? personally i think they both work well, its just hard with splits, because it becomes a question of how much do i split it up, and what bodyparts can go near eachother or be done on the same day, this is why i typically do no more than a 3-4 day split
User owns 1x Super Squats
__________________
It isn't that they cant see the solution.
It is that they cant see the problem.
-G.K. Chesterton

No Bullshit no problems

My Blog- http://grim83.blogspot.com/
Grim83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 12:36 AM   #14
dmaipa
Living in the Shadows
Max Brawn
Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73 Points: 12,684, Level: 73
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
dmaipa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York..
Posts: 3,076
Training Type: Bodybuilding
Fav Supp: Food
Reputation: 48162
dmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machinedmaipa is a lifting machine
Default

Sorry if some of this sounds redundant, I didn't have a chance to read everyones' post. I'm 24, and for the pass 3 years I've been seriously training. I've done a lower body upper body split, and have also followed the conjugated method for a little. Recently, I've decided to experiment with full-body splits. I came across strong lifts 5x5 and read up on it and will be giving it a try. It calls for lifting three times a week Mon/Wed/Fri training the whole body. I am keeping a training log on this forum to keep track of how it all goes. I will also post pictures when i get a chance.
__________________
Connect with me more:

THE AIPA PROJECT | HAWAII FITNESS AND AWESOME KU LIFESTYLE BLOG

Youtube Channel: THE AIPA PROJECT

Twitter, Instagram, Facebook: @theaipaproject
dmaipa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 12:44 AM   #15
kitarpyar
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94
Activity: 50% Activity: 50% Activity: 50%
 
kitarpyar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,723
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Reputation: 121086
kitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
The underweight issue is a good one. The question becomes...when someone is underweight, what areas on the body is the weight missing from? Obviously some of the missing weight is muscle. I would wager that some is bone...bone density must be lacking to a degree. But that can't contribute to much?
This leads to another question I have... Can weight-training increase the bone density to an extent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
I don't believe my 30+ lean gain was all muscle. I can't speak for you, because...like I said...I don't understand physiology to the point of knowing what takes place in the body during periods of being underweight.
That is a good point. I guess increase in lean body mass does not mean the same increase in the muscle tissues, since a significant part of the increase is due to additional water retention.

I guess another issue is that I am no expert in using BF calipers, so it might have been very easy to screw up on caliper measurements + initial BF% is what I have from anthropometric measurements rather than calipers.

The 30 lb gain I speak of is not overall increase in bodyweight. I started at BW = 140 lbs, LBM = 120-121. Overall weight gain was different - at my heaviest, it was 55 lbs (BW = 195, LBM = 156). After cutting down overall gain is 35 lbs above the starting weight (BW = 175, LBM = 151).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
I've seen 125 pound guys on bb.com state that they gained 60 pounds of muscle and are now 185.
Yep, I know a few of them myself, and some have pics to back it up. But I think many of those cases are when folks start pretty young, in their teens - i.e. it becomes hard to say how much of the gains is due to their training and how much is a result of the simple process of growing up.

That apart, while I hate to bring this in a discussion, present day "natural" is a different breed altogether. Some would consider PH to be natural (I think till a while back at least some nattie BB organization turned a blind eye towards PH). Not a diss in any way, just sayin that the folks who fall within the ambit of Casey's equations didnt have the benefit of that stuff, and hence, these days its hard to say if a claim of natural 60 lbs increase is just 60 lbs gain on good food and a whey protein shake (40s and 50s style), or good food + *super* supps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
Personally, when I look at Casey's calculations, I tend to analyze my own gains from a normalized, healthy body weight. My normal weight was around 170 at about 15% bodyfat. This was my post-military weight for several years, and falls within an "average" weight for my height. I was far from muscular at this weight. My picture below is at 170.

At 170 and 15% bodyfat, my base lean mass was 144.5. My lean mass for the last 10 years has been 178 to 179. So in essence, from a normalized weight, I've gained 34 to 35 pounds of muscle.
And this really is an interesting point to note - it is 34-35 lbs more than the average guy of your height, NOT 34-35 lbs more than when you started. Compared to 15%BF and 145 lbs (your starting condition), your LBM has gone up by a whopping 56 lbs. Not sure if Casey meant Reg Parks had 38 lbs more than the average 6'2" dude, or whether he meant Reg Parks gained a total of 38 lbs of lean mass since he started training, but given the context of the post, I assumed the latter. Of course, given that Parks was definitely not underweight starting out, both ways it might have been the same.

This also brings me to another question (yes, yet another - I like asking questions ) - Casey has a number of different equations in his book, one of which is for hardgainers; the "potential" for hard-gainers is significantly less than the standard values from the calculator on his web-site. Just wondering, in addition to Casey's definition of hard-gainers (short muscle bellies, relatively low natural test levels, etc), the fact that someone has been underweight all his life prior to lifting can be taken as an indication of someone being a hard-gainer. I am still at a lower LBM predicted by the hard-gainer equation, although by only 3-4 of lbs given my current BF level. May be not, but just wondering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
I hope I don't appear to be minimizing your progress...that is not my intention at all. I believe what you achieved is no easy feat! My only point in my long ramble was that I look at Casey's maximum potential referenced against a normalized weight.
Lol, no worries

If I take your approach and compare the amount of lean body mass that I have over and above what healthy folks my height would have, it turns out to be a measly 6-7 lbs more (and obviously, no patch on the gains of Reg Parks and other top drug-free lifters of that era). Always good to have a reality check, and I would rather people tell me the facts as they are rather than say w/e I have done is awesome - that's what would help me progress.

Last edited by kitarpyar; 11-25-2009 at 01:07 AM.
kitarpyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 02:36 AM   #16
chess315
Member
Brawn
Points: 929, Level: 16 Points: 929, Level: 16 Points: 929, Level: 16
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
chess315's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 82
Reputation: 11
chess315 is off to a bad start
Default

this is a very hypothetical at best thing I have seen with absoulte no doubt naturals build 450 benchs and and so forth and look look fairly bulked up with fairly matching total body strength but it could just be genetics to you have to realise in regparks days there proably 100 body builders per state lol there is a way bigger gene pool and even regpark as good as his training was was overtraining by a high degree with hindsight he would have been better doing less and he was basicly on a dirty bulk and had to have definces in his diet.
chess315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 05:56 AM   #17
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 148251
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim83 View Post
Personally I think they both work well, its just hard with splits, because it becomes a question of how much do i split it up, and what bodyparts can go near eachother or be done on the same day, this is why i typically do no more than a 3-4 day split
Thats a good point Grim, and something I'd like to talk more about. I don't have time right now to get into it though.
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 06:00 AM   #18
glwanabe
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79 Points: 15,106, Level: 79
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,268
Reputation: 148251
glwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master memberglwanabe is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chess315 View Post
this is a very hypothetical at best thing.

Please elaborate on this


Even Reg Park as good as his training was was overtraining by a high degree.

Really? I don't think so.


with hindsight he would have been better doing less and he was basicly on a dirty bulk and had to have definces in his diet.

Once again, Can you provide some more info for the basis of this statement?
I'll get back to you on this.
glwanabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 08:22 AM   #19
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 
Extreme Mini Golf Champion!Tournaments Won: 6

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,695
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2578435
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaipa View Post
Sorry if some of this sounds redundant, I didn't have a chance to read everyones' post. I'm 24, and for the pass 3 years I've been seriously training. I've done a lower body upper body split, and have also followed the conjugated method for a little. Recently, I've decided to experiment with full-body splits. I came across strong lifts 5x5 and read up on it and will be giving it a try. It calls for lifting three times a week Mon/Wed/Fri training the whole body. I am keeping a training log on this forum to keep track of how it all goes. I will also post pictures when i get a chance.
No problem at all. Please feel free to jump in. Never worry about being redundant here. And your post isn't redundant, btw.

I really like upper/lower splits...or better yet...posterior chains/pressing splits...with strength training. I wish I could have started over as a beginner and tried a 5x5. You seem fairly strong, so there might be a chance that rotating your workout between (H)Heavy, (M)Moderate and (L)Light might be helpful. Not sure if the Stronglifts program is structured that way or not...I assume it is to some degree.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2009, 08:24 AM   #20
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 
Extreme Mini Golf Champion!Tournaments Won: 6

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 80,695
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2578435
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chess315 View Post
this is a very hypothetical at best thing I have seen with absoulte no doubt naturals build 450 benchs and and so forth and look look fairly bulked up with fairly matching total body strength but it could just be genetics to you have to realise in regparks days there proably 100 body builders per state lol there is a way bigger gene pool and even regpark as good as his training was was overtraining by a high degree with hindsight he would have been better doing less and he was basicly on a dirty bulk and had to have definces in his diet.
Natural mass potential is not hypothetical in the least. It has been rigorously studied. Please read:

Your Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements

I do NOT want lurkers to read this and believe that we am basing our discussion on opinion. This issue is based on science...the best science available at the time.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
fullbody, splits


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What I dont understand about bodybuilding splits plap0 Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 21 08-01-2013 12:48 PM
Splits titus_teen Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 3 03-09-2012 09:34 PM
Novice training and splits MikeC Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 18 08-11-2011 06:10 AM
Splits back in the day? MikeC Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 1 07-08-2011 11:32 AM
Chest shoulder and tricep splits buZZkiLL Muscle Building and Bodybuilding 6 09-01-2010 10:12 AM

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.