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Old 09-26-2012, 05:46 PM   #5661
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Urgh I hate it when my fingers catch on the way up! Especially on the sumos. I don't tend to get that problem on my smoother reps for some reason so I tend to think set up plays a role in that. Maybe related to your chest forward positioning, that may bring your hands in contact without thighs at the wri f point. Perhaps.

Anyway, good work mate. We need to have a deadlift session some time, would be good to pinpoint a few things I'm person.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:48 PM   #5662
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Sumos are looking more fluid. One of the best sessions I've seen. Conventionals are looking muy bien though. Those looked powerful.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:38 AM   #5663
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I had a chance to look at the video Al. Firstly the cameraman, I'll have what he's having.

IRT the Sumo's, I think it's going to be a useful exercise for you. The form deficiencies you have on your regular deadlifts are really being highlighted here. Namely:

1) Arm bending on the way up.
2) Hitching.

So let's back it up a second here. This is going to get a little long, so get comfortable. Conventional pulls can usually be done one of two ways.

1) Flat back usually with wider stance. Slow off the floor, strong lockout.
2) Round back, usually narrower stance. Quick off the floor, slow lockout.

Leaving Sumo to be done in one relatively accepted way.

1) Flat back, slow off the floor, relatively smooth lockout.

The first type of conventional puller converts to Sumo very quickly. He is what I would term, a 'closet Sumo puller'. He would already be better at Sumo he just doesn't know it yet. The reason being he has the ability to keep a flat thoracic spine and start the pull like that, as well as the neccessary hip/ham strength to initiate the pull. This allows the upper back to remain in a powerful position to end the pull. The hips will typically be far out at the start of the pull, and this is sometimes mistaken as bad form (it isn't) it just utilises the strong hips to push forward to finish the pull. Like a good power clean.

The second type of conventional puller will not convert to Sumo so readily, his strengths are almost the opposite of what is required for a good Sumo. He'll probably have a very strong lower back, but his upper back is weaker especially in his thoracic stability. So he might initiate the pull with a flat back but will quickly let his upper back slouch and then have to restraighten to finish the lift. This lifter will probably look down at the start of the pull, and initiate with the quads almost like a leg press off the floor. As he initiates the pull off the floor with the quads, the hips and knees have a tendancy to start in a relatively forward position, this combined with his lower back strength and relatively weak thoracic region will make the back to round. Forcing the lifter into a weak finish.

You're the second type of puller. Converting to Sumo is going to a mini-project for you, and not something you'll accomplish with max singles on ME day. You'll need to back off, do correctional exercises as ME work and plenty of DE singles with band tension and impeccable form on speed days. You're after strengthening your thoracic region as well as the hips/hams. Also de-emphasising your current strengths. I know the latter is already in the works, but the former regarding exercise selection is something to bear in mind. When you are able to do speed singles in good form with 80% (including band weight) on the bar your form will be good enough to max on. To truly commit to this you need the discipline to be able to take a step back, you might get weaker for a while, correct the deficiencies and change your strength groove.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:28 AM   #5664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
I had a chance to look at the video Al. Firstly the cameraman, I'll have what he's having.

IRT the Sumo's, I think it's going to be a useful exercise for you. The form deficiencies you have on your regular deadlifts are really being highlighted here. Namely:

1) Arm bending on the way up.
2) Hitching.

So let's back it up a second here. This is going to get a little long, so get comfortable. Conventional pulls can usually be done one of two ways.

1) Flat back usually with wider stance. Slow off the floor, strong lockout.
2) Round back, usually narrower stance. Quick off the floor, slow lockout.

Leaving Sumo to be done in one relatively accepted way.

1) Flat back, slow off the floor, relatively smooth lockout.

The first type of conventional puller converts to Sumo very quickly. He is what I would term, a 'closet Sumo puller'. He would already be better at Sumo he just doesn't know it yet. The reason being he has the ability to keep a flat thoracic spine and start the pull like that, as well as the neccessary hip/ham strength to initiate the pull. This allows the upper back to remain in a powerful position to end the pull. The hips will typically be far out at the start of the pull, and this is sometimes mistaken as bad form (it isn't) it just utilises the strong hips to push forward to finish the pull. Like a good power clean.

The second type of conventional puller will not convert to Sumo so readily, his strengths are almost the opposite of what is required for a good Sumo. He'll probably have a very strong lower back, but his upper back is weaker especially in his thoracic stability. So he might initiate the pull with a flat back but will quickly let his upper back slouch and then have to restraighten to finish the lift. This lifter will probably look down at the start of the pull, and initiate with the quads almost like a leg press off the floor. As he initiates the pull off the floor with the quads, the hips and knees have a tendancy to start in a relatively forward position, this combined with his lower back strength and relatively weak thoracic region will make the back to round. Forcing the lifter into a weak finish.

You're the second type of puller. Converting to Sumo is going to a mini-project for you, and not something you'll accomplish with max singles on ME day. You'll need to back off, do correctional exercises as ME work and plenty of DE singles with band tension and impeccable form on speed days. You're after strengthening your thoracic region as well as the hips/hams. Also de-emphasising your current strengths. I know the latter is already in the works, but the former regarding exercise selection is something to bear in mind. When you are able to do speed singles in good form with 80% (including band weight) on the bar your form will be good enough to max on. To truly commit to this you need the discipline to be able to take a step back, you might get weaker for a while, correct the deficiencies and change your strength groove.
Awesome post and I agree with a lot of what you say. My follow-up question is this: is it worthwhile for me to continue to pull sumo even if it costs me a few KGs in the meet or am I better off using it as a special exercise to increase my conventional pull?

Feeling good today. Not too sore from last night and my waist is now so small that I need to put another hole in my work belt so I guess the stomach bug was good for something Dynamic effort bench tomorrow I think but that could change to tonight. Watch this space.

Al
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:13 AM   #5665
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I like your tenacity to never give up on a lift, even if it means poor form. Must be the competitive spirit in you.

Sumo's looked amazing before the 215. Ultra wide stance you have as well.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #5666
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You may feel weak and sick but you still pulled close to 500! That's more than most people will ever manage! Looking forward to seeing what you can do when you're at or near 100%
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:36 PM   #5667
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Thanks guys but to pull 5kgs less than my raw sumo best and 25kgs less than my conventional best and with that horrendous form is disappointing. Onwards and upwards.

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Old 09-28-2012, 04:34 AM   #5668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtL View Post
Awesome post and I agree with a lot of what you say. My follow-up question is this: is it worthwhile for me to continue to pull sumo even if it costs me a few KGs in the meet or am I better off using it as a special exercise to increase my conventional pull?
Similar to what you said in email, I don't think given the time you have it will be enough time to pull together your form enough to make a sufficient difference to warrant going Sumo before this comp.

The best results I had from DE work was to do the work with the form you have in mind. I don't think variations in DE work are massively useful in my experience unless just for a mental change of pace. For me DE work is the base on which it's all built on, during DE work I'll be able to tell what I need to work on to allow me to build the form I want. So you could say the DE work informs your ME choices.

Precomp I would say speed conventional pulls will be your friend. You could max on Deadlifts for ME if you really wanted but I wouldn't do that. Speed pull in your suit and max pull raw on ME days and should have a decent idea of where you'll be at for the comp.

Forgot how long till you're comp but I'd wave the following -

Week 1: Speed Conv 10 singles apprx 70% including band weight
Week 2: Speed Conv 8 singles apprx 75%
Week 3: Speed Conv 6 singles apprx 80%

Try and figure it so the comp lands on a week 3. Keep the ME exercises moving till the final week and then do a BB workout. Ireally wouldn't max on the deadlift in training for ME - You miss valuable training time towards fixing your weaknesses if you do, and you'll only reinforce bad habits. Especially if I had form that needed fixing I would not even touch the lift heavy till I feel I'd fixed it.

Remember how long it was after the comp that I made the 280k squat? Was months. That was because my form required a major up haul. If I had squatted in that period what purpose would it have served? Zero. I would just have reinforced bad habits. That's why you have DE day, to build good habits with manageable yet heavy work on the comp lifts.

You really just need to STOP doing ME stuff which reinforces bad habits, you can't do it anymore if you want to change it. Can't. No more round back GMs, Deads or anything like that. NONE! ZERO! Doesn't matter if the weight is light(er) you need to build the correct form to go farther in the future.

Postcomp is a different deal, we can talk about that in more detail but it'd involve sumo speed pulls and correctional shit ONLY on the ME day.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:02 AM   #5669
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LOL that was an epic hitch!!!!!!

Looks like you are making the same mistake I still make from time to time. When you rush that set up, you never get your shoulders pulled back. In gear you really have to pull yourself down into the bar, at that time you really should be pulling the shoulders back. I try to squeeze mine similar to the way I would on the bench set up.

I have to agree with Fraz. Too close to the meet to worry about fixing the issues now. Pull with what feels best.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:34 AM   #5670
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Originally Posted by Fazc View Post
Similar to what you said in email, I don't think given the time you have it will be enough time to pull together your form enough to make a sufficient difference to warrant going Sumo before this comp.

The best results I had from DE work was to do the work with the form you have in mind. I don't think variations in DE work are massively useful in my experience unless just for a mental change of pace. For me DE work is the base on which it's all built on, during DE work I'll be able to tell what I need to work on to allow me to build the form I want. So you could say the DE work informs your ME choices.

Precomp I would say speed conventional pulls will be your friend. You could max on Deadlifts for ME if you really wanted but I wouldn't do that. Speed pull in your suit and max pull raw on ME days and should have a decent idea of where you'll be at for the comp.

Forgot how long till you're comp but I'd wave the following -

Week 1: Speed Conv 10 singles apprx 70% including band weight
Week 2: Speed Conv 8 singles apprx 75%
Week 3: Speed Conv 6 singles apprx 80%

Try and figure it so the comp lands on a week 3. Keep the ME exercises moving till the final week and then do a BB workout. I really wouldn't max on the deadlift in training for ME - You miss valuable training time towards fixing your weaknesses if you do, and you'll only reinforce bad habits. Especially if I had form that needed fixing I would not even touch the lift heavy till I feel I'd fixed it.

Remember how long it was after the comp that I made the 280k squat? Was months. That was because my form required a major up haul. If I had squatted in that period what purpose would it have served? Zero. I would just have reinforced bad habits. That's why you have DE day, to build good habits with manageable yet heavy work on the comp lifts.

You really just need to STOP doing ME stuff which reinforces bad habits, you can't do it anymore if you want to change it. Can't. No more round back GMs, Deads or anything like that. NONE! ZERO! Doesn't matter if the weight is light(er) you need to build the correct form to go farther in the future.

Postcomp is a different deal, we can talk about that in more detail but it'd involve sumo speed pulls and correctional shit ONLY on the ME day.
So just speed pulls and special exercises pre-meet then. Done. We can fix everything else after. What kind of DL variants should I be doing pre-meet for max effort? I have arched GMs, dead stop GMs and possibly a reverse band GM but was wondering about pulling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Byrd View Post
LOL that was an epic hitch!!!!!!

Looks like you are making the same mistake I still make from time to time. When you rush that set up, you never get your shoulders pulled back. In gear you really have to pull yourself down into the bar, at that time you really should be pulling the shoulders back. I try to squeeze mine similar to the way I would on the bench set up.

I have to agree with Faz. Too close to the meet to worry about fixing the issues now. Pull with what feels best.
Thanks JB. Glad I'm not alone

Al
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