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Old 04-05-2012, 11:46 PM   #51
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Quote from the Official RIPPETOE-STARTING STRENGTH FAQ:

Quote:
In Practical Programming, due out the 1st or 2nd week of December 2006, Rippetoe recommends that a set/rep scheme of 5x3 (5 sets, 3 reps, instead of 3 sets, 5 reps) can be performed on the power clean, and is possibly advantageous, especially once power clean technique improves.

He also allows for replacing the clean with the bent row, with certain technique caveats (again, see the Exercise section in this write-up, as always, check the Table of Contents) He prefers the power clean, but in many cases, the power clean is not safely performed, or is impractical.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
You say they are needed, Rippetoe doesn't. You say the lack of using them will cause an imbalance, Rippetoe doesn't.
The same Rippetoe that has had four rotator cuff surgeries?

What did Dave Tate or ZiR RED say about the matter?

Quote:
When I see this dilemma, I ask myself...what can I learn? What's the big picture? That's the only question I am personally interested in. If I am not willing to learn about options, I will only paint myself into corners. That's all I have to say.

------------------------------------

T-Nation: Any reason for not using rows much?

Rippetoe: It's a decent assistance exercise, and so are dips. I don't really want to put chins or pull-ups in that list, because they're essential upper body exercises. I think chin-ups and barbell rows are in two different categories. But we don't really use barbell rows, and I think that's one of the puzzling things that developed on the Internet.

I think rows are in a lot of these spin-offs of my program because people need another exercise off the floor besides deadlifts, but everybody's afraid to learn the clean. I don't really understand it, except that, in people's minds, rows are easier to learn. They look slow, they don't look as complicated.

I think I did a decent job of explaining the clean in the book, and I think it's a much better exercise than the barbell row. Because it can't be done slowly. That's why we use it. It's an explosive lift.
I posted this quote earlier. He claims they are a decent assistance exercise.

I might not be able to deadlift 700lbs. I might be weak as shit compared to some of you guys. I'll probably never be as strong as half of the people here, but I do research anatomy and physiology...and I do understand it. I spend three years in college majoring in physical therapy. I never made a B in high school. I might not be a performer, but my brain does understand things once I've read them.

Quote:
Lats

Mean Weighted Chin-up, Weighted Pronated Wide-Grip Pull-up, Rack Pull
Peak Weighted Pronated Wide-Grip Pull-up, Rack Pull, Underhand-Grip Feet Elevated Inverted Row

Mid Trap

Mean DB Bent-Over Row, DB Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row, Prone Trap Raise
Peak Prone Trap Raise, DB Bent-Over Row, DB Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row

Lower Trap

Mean DB Bent-Over Row, Prone Trap Raise, DB Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row
Peak DB Elbows Out Chest Supported-Row, Prone Trap Raise, DB Bent-Over Row
^ 45 exercises were tested through an EMG. They wanted to see what movements work what muscles the most. Guess which one won for the traps? Rows.

T NATION | Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises

Quote:
He also allows for replacing the clean with the bent row
He says only if the lifter fails to learn cleans. Cleans and rows aren't comparable though. It's debating front squats vs. chest flies. Cleans are an explosive lift through utilization of the hips and rows are a focused upper back lift. One is horizontal and one is vertical.

Quote:
... almost anyone whom i have gotten to do barbell rows right always comes back to them as the basis for their back routines... they get tired of them after a while and do other things, but always come back because they work so well. deadlifts, chinups, and lots of other things work for back, but in my opinion nothing works quite like barbell rows if they are done right.

... it might interest you to know that we hooked an EMG machine up to people doing various kinds of back work, and NOTHING came close to rows for activating a large amount of motor units. i wouldnt "prescribe" exercises based on this alone, but it does back up the practical experience that i have had.
^ Another EMG report about rowing.

Quote:
Latissimus dorsi:

Bent-over barbell rows - 93%

One-arm dumbbell rows - 91%

T-bar rows - 89%

Lat pulldowns to the front - 86%

Seated pulley rows - 83%




References:



1. DeLuca, Fj., R.S. LeFever, M.P. McCue, and A.P. Xenakis. (1982), “Behavior of human motor units in different muscles during lineally varying contractions” Journal Physiology (Lond), 329:113-128.



2. Kobayashi Matsui, H. (1983), “Analysis of myoelectric signals during dynamic and isometric contraction.” Electromyog Clin Neurophysiol, 26, 147-160.



3. Melo, G.L. and E. Cafarelli. (1994-95), Exercise Physiology Laboratory Manual, 25.



4. Moritani, T. and H.A. deVries. (1987), “Re-examination of the relationship between the surface integrated electromyogram (IEMG) and force of isometric contraction.” American Journal of Physiological Medicine, 57:263-277.



5. Moritani, T., M. Muro, and A. Nagata. (1986), “Intramuscular and surface electromyogram changes during muscle fatigue.” Journal of Applied Physiology, 60:1179-1185
^ Another EMG measurement. This was on the lats, but the back in general....

Quote:
The following table identifies exercises for the trapezius and the percent (out of 100) EMG active:

Exercise


% EMG

Bent over barbell row 93

One arm dumbbell row 91

T-bar row 89

Lat pull-down (front) 86

Seated row 83

Chin up 79

Eccentric chin up: 72
Quote:
The following table identifies exercises for the latissimus dorsi and the percent (out of 100) EMG activity:

Exercise

% EMG

Bent over barbell row 93

One arm dumbbell row 91

T-bar row 89

Lat pull-down (front) 86

Seated row 83

Chin up 79

Eccentric chin up 72
That EMG concluded rows were better for both lat and trap development.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:36 AM   #53
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I believe that a muscle can be worked through over-load without a full range of motion. It happens with the deadlift and the back muscles. It happens with the calves when you squat. It happens with the shoulders when you bar dip. And it happens with the abs in any exercise that requires stabilization. Maybe not ideal, but certainly it happens.

I also believe, and have been taught, that you really only need a balanced routine periodically to stave off over-use injuries. It will do no harm if you run a couple of cycles of specialization routines as long as you follow it with something balanced. It doesn't take that long to have things catch-up, especially if your routine is already using quality compound movements that create overload in the major muscle groups.

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Old 04-08-2012, 04:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP View Post
The same Rippetoe that has had four rotator cuff surgeries?

What did Dave Tate or ZiR RED say about the matter?



I posted this quote earlier. He claims they are a decent assistance exercise.

I might not be able to deadlift 700lbs. I might be weak as shit compared to some of you guys. I'll probably never be as strong as half of the people here, but I do research anatomy and physiology...and I do understand it. I spend three years in college majoring in physical therapy. I never made a B in high school. I might not be a performer, but my brain does understand things once I've read them.



^ 45 exercises were tested through an EMG. They wanted to see what movements work what muscles the most. Guess which one won for the traps? Rows.

T NATION | Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises



He says only if the lifter fails to learn cleans. Cleans and rows aren't comparable though. It's debating front squats vs. chest flies. Cleans are an explosive lift through utilization of the hips and rows are a focused upper back lift. One is horizontal and one is vertical.



^ Another EMG report about rowing.



^ Another EMG measurement. This was on the lats, but the back in general....





That EMG concluded rows were better for both lat and trap development.
I would be very interested in a study done comparing rows to cleans. Those studies you posted compare rows to other exercises, but not cleans specifically. Rows are far too hard on my lower back, thats the reason I prefer cleans. Well that and the carryover to strongman. I will clean 300 before the end of this year.
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