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-   -   When is it time to move on? (http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8527)

tank 01-08-2012 12:33 PM

When is it time to move on?
 
I'm working through intermediate levels now using Madcow's 5x5 Intermediate program, and having read several books concerning trainees' phases of advancement and following the training of many lifters on MAB I find myself wanting the opinions of you all about indicators a lifter should move forward in his training.

Off the top of my head, I'll share what I think I know to be true and how it applies.

1) Goals are established
2) Program is established using simplest method of progression applicable to lifter's adaptation (level of advancement)
3) If measurable progress toward goals is being made, make no change
4) If measurable progress is not being made, re-evaluate training, diet, rest
5) If regression is occuring, evaluate diet, rest, and possibility of over-training


My problem lies with step 3, I guess. If a lifter is making measurable progress, it is not necessarily the best progress that can be reasonably (naturally) made during this length of time. Depending on the goals of the lifter, this progress may or may not be adequate/satisfying. Personally, if I'm not making the best progress possible in the shortest amount of time, I am literally wasting time and am unsatisfied.

I remember being told awhile ago, before reading much on what defined the advancement of a lifter, that there were certain weights-per-lift that indicated strength level and a need to move on. It was something like bench 1.5 times bodyweight, squat 2 times bodyweight, and deadlift 2.5 times bodyweight. Is this type of consideration useless? Can it apply to this timeline or dictate transition?

If a program does not inflict enough stress to require a deload, does the program's efficiency become questionable?

Fazc 01-08-2012 01:03 PM

Tank,

A few comments in no particular order:

1) You are still young and some time moving sideways isn't always a bad thing. It is okay to take a short break from your regular training to do something else, if this satisfies your curiosity/sanity.

2) Changing routines necessitates some downtime where you get up to speed on the new sets/reps and/or exercises. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but make sure you account for it when you're looking at optimum progress.

3) A bunch of sets/reps written on a monitor screen don't make the lifter.

4) Little progress is always better than no progress (unless number 1 applies of course).

5) Some people cope with routine changes much better than others. Some don't and require a mental/physical build up. Which are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tank (Post 205583)
If a program does not inflict enough stress to require a deload, does the program's efficiency become questionable?

This is probably my fault.

1) In terms of absolute progress, if it's working then stay on it.

2) In terms of fun/curiosity then sure switch it up for a while.

Ryano 01-08-2012 01:21 PM

I think any program needs to be adjusted to the individual. If the % or rep scheme of a program isn't want you want, adapt it to you. Add weight, reps, sets where needed. Don't make it to complicated. Load the bar and lift it.

tank 01-08-2012 03:24 PM

thinking about it a bit at lunch, i think the thing i don't like about my current routine is the ramping sets. i want to be doing sets across with the final set's weight.

Ryano 01-08-2012 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tank (Post 205649)
thinking about it a bit at lunch, i think the thing i don't like about my current routine is the ramping sets. i want to be doing sets across with the final set's weight.

Cool. Don't ramp it. Start with your final set weight, hit 5 x 5 if you can. If you make it add weight the next week. If you go below 5 on set 4 lower the weight until you make to the 5th set. When you hit the entire 5 x 5, add weight. Simple....get stronger.

BendtheBar 01-08-2012 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tank (Post 205583)

If a program does not inflict enough stress to require a deload, does the program's efficiency become questionable?

No.

I didn't deload until this year. I wasn't someone that pushed into overreaching. It did bring limitations around a 565 deadlift and 500 squat for me, but until that point I didn't need it.

My progression was slow but steady. I never worked at 90% plus and built most of my strength in the 5 to 8 rep range. My only point is that if you listen to your body and aren't pushing 90% plus range, you can progress without needing many, if any, deloads.

Quite frankly I see far too many people deloading when they really don't need to deload. They have a bad workout and think it requires a week off.

Fazc and Ryano gave you some good advice. I can only add that if the program isn't fun for you, change it. Despite all the mumbo jumbo on the Internet, lifting is pretty simple and the core of great workouts aren't that different.

The method of progression and frequency are usually the defining aspect of a program for beginners and intermediates. Beyond that you are pretty much using the same exercises in similar rep ranges.

If you want options, I would be glad to give you more than a few that will work.

tank 01-09-2012 10:56 AM

Being at the end of week 10 of Madcow's Intermediate, I think I would like a change of program after running it for 12 weeks; not because results have tapered, actually despite still getting results.

I feel like 12 weeks on the program was a fair shake and that changing it up wouldn't halt progress. Mentally, I think a change would be refreshing. After these next 2 weeks end, I'll be taking mid-tour leave, so returning from leave, I think, would be a great time to start something new.

Now the question is, what to do? :D

EDIT: To prevent tailoring this thread to me specifically, feel free to respond/start this discussion in my log.

markievicz 01-09-2012 11:06 AM

they do say a change is as good as a rest you know...

and i can see why you might like to have a fresh run at a new program when you return, im on my 9th cycle of 5/3/1 ( in my log its called cycle 3 cause thats when i started logging here) i would suggest this as a good alternative , but i suspect the progress might be a bit slow for your tastes .... from reading others logs , i have become very interested in Fazc program and will venture towards it at some stage...

tank 01-09-2012 11:22 AM

i've considered that as well!

Fazc 01-09-2012 11:33 AM

How about a compromise, something like this:

Monday - Squats + Bench 5x5 sets across. Deadlift 1x5

Wednesday - Front Squats + Overhead Press 1x5 ramping. Chins 5x5

Friday - Squat + Bench ramp upto a 1RM, 3RM or 5RM. Row 5x5

The Friday here is your PR day which sets the pace for the next week and allows you to handle weights heavier than you normally would. Wednesday is a light day and Monday has considerable volume in terms of sets across which should drive your gains.

I don't think you're at the level where abbreviating to the 4way split would be better than doing something like the above which is more frequent.


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