Muscle and Brawn Forums
 

Go Back   Muscle and Brawn Forums > Training > Powerlifting & Strength Training
Mark Forums Read
Register Articles Members List Search Today's Posts

Notices

Powerlifting & Strength Training Topics related to powerlifting and strength training.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2011, 06:19 PM   #11
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,940
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

From the article:

Quote:
But you take a guy that squats even 500 lbs and have him try to knock off a 55 squat workout, and you’re looking at some serious poundage for that session, and with a fairly substantial weight to boot. Obviously this will get worse the stronger you get, too; anecdotally you’ll see guys working down the percentages with their lighter work as they get stronger.

That may sound odd, but consider 60% of an 800 lb squat – that’s still 480 lbs. Even though it’s “just” 60%, it’s still a heavy enough weight in absolute terms that it can be a stimulus.

I think that as you get stronger, the need to “widen the gap” becomes more important. You need heavy work at the top-end – singles, doubles, and triples with pretty heavy weight.
Not to derail the thread but I would add that I fail at most percentage based systems. I'll see things like 80% on squats for 3x8 reps and I'll choke on my coffee. With a 500 raw squat, I can only do about 6 safe reps with 405. Instead I often have used things like 8x2 or 6x3 with 80%.

I also tend to see greater benefit from lower percentages and higher reps. Last year I trained deadlifts at about 55% for 20 reps sets and saw a 20 pound PR.

I've never met a percentage system that would work for me personally. The rep sets between 5-10 are always beyond my personal capabilities on all 3 major lifts.

Simply stated, I really despise most work between 5-12 reps right now. I can't train like I did 10 years ago, and I wouldn't advise younger lifters to train like me.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 07-27-2011 at 06:28 PM.
BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-27-2011, 06:40 PM   #12
IronManlet
With apelike velocity
Max Brawn
Points: 5,468, Level: 47 Points: 5,468, Level: 47 Points: 5,468, Level: 47
Activity: 8% Activity: 8% Activity: 8%
 
IronManlet's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,480
Training Exp: 2 years
Training Type: Heavy Duty
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Steak
Reputation: 56904
IronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beastIronManlet is a lifting beast
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
From the article:
I disagree entirely with that snippet. Absolute terms don't mean anything on an individual basis. 400lbs is nothing to someone who squats 800, just like 250lbs is nothing to a 500lb squatter. Obviously if your top weight is 250 it will seem like a lot of weight, but when you become stronger weights that used to feel heavy and tax you feel lighter and are not as hard.

Unless you argue that 500lbs taxes every lifter in the same way, which is preposterous.
__________________
Form follows function.
IronManlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 06:54 PM   #13
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

Good reading.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 07:04 PM   #14
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,940
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Just because the weight gets heavier doesn't mean that 50% feels the same as it did when you were lifting a 200 pound lighter 1RM.

When my deadlift was 375 I couldn't get a decent workout with 185 for reps. Now that my deadlift is near 600 I can easily get a great workout in with 315 if I wanted to - and I do from time to time.

Same for squats, bench, and every other heavy lift. You're thinking that things stay relatively the same, but they don't. The curve doesn't work like that.

The heavier the lift gets, the more and more I lose my middle ranges. The heavier the lift gets, the harder it becomes for me to do things like 5x5s. When my squat max was 275 I could have done a 5x5 with 225. Now that my squat is 500, there's no way I can do 405x5x5. I know this from years of experience and trying.

I spent an entire year trying to bump my reps on 405 over 5. Never happened for one set. No way I could hit a 5x5. But, I could also easily knock out 405 x 8 x 2 and did this for months on end. I handled lower reps much easier than ranges just a few notches up.

With each pound the relative middle of the curve becomes more difficult. 50% at 275 is much easier than 50% at 500. With each pound the middle rep ranges become harder for me to progress in, but I still can make solid progression on lower and higher rep sets. Losing the middle.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."



Last edited by BendtheBar; 07-27-2011 at 07:37 PM.
BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:44 PM   #15
Abaddon
Strongman & Trainer
Max Brawn
Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61 Points: 8,358, Level: 61
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
Abaddon's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Iron Pit
Posts: 3,959
Training Exp: 5 years total
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Log Clean Press
Fav Supp: Meat & Milk
Reputation: 650
Abaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality postsAbaddon has made some quality posts
Default

Increases in heavy weight are like exponential growth in terms of how they impact the body.
__________________

W.A. AMATEUR STRONGMAN

MY LOG

PERSONAL RECORDS
Axle clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Bench press: 135 kgs (298 lbs) - 1st PL meet 16th October 2011
Deadlift w/Barbell: 180 kgs (397 lbs)
Deadlift w/Hexbar: 225 kgs (496 lbs)
Farmers walk: 240 kgs (530 lbs), 50 feet
Front squat: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Log clean-press: 100 kgs (220 lbs)
Strict OHP: 85 kgs (187 lbs) 3 reps
Tyre flip: 260 kgs (573 lbs), 100 feet
Abaddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 09:02 PM   #16
kitarpyar
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94 Points: 23,931, Level: 94
Activity: 50% Activity: 50% Activity: 50%
 
kitarpyar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,737
Training Type: Fullbody
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Reputation: 121110
kitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master memberkitarpyar is a master member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
The eccentric aspects of lifts are the most taxing part of training, and as it has been mentioned here several times before, there isn't a lot of eccentric work in Olympic training.

With that said, they still squat which is Herculean.
Agreed. With squats, even if you squat olympic style, there is only so much of an eccentric component that you can take out of the lift.
kitarpyar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 03:42 AM   #17
Fazc
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77 Points: 14,403, Level: 77
Activity: 36% Activity: 36% Activity: 36%
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: U.K
Posts: 5,554
Training Exp: 12+ years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Bench Press
Fav Supp: Chicken
Reputation: 420568
Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!Fazc is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronManlet View Post
Obviously if your top weight is 250 it will seem like a lot of weight, but when you become stronger weights that used to feel heavy and tax you feel lighter and are not as hard.
The problem with what you're saying is it just isn't true in practice.

I've been upto 500lbs squats, as has BtB. After a certain point most weights just feel the same... heavy! Even when I was squatting 500lbs I would limit my work at 400-450 to singles for warm-ups because they definitely taxed me. Where you're making the mistake is, assuming that recovery ability increases linearly with strength. It does not.

It is quite well accepted that as the body progresses our strength may increase but our recovery doesn't expand much if at all. Don't agree? This is why we need periodisation, cycling, light days, deload weeks, off weeks, H/L/M and all other types of intensity/volume cycling because of precisely that issue. If we didn't then we would all continue to train the big lifts 3 days a week as we got stronger, obviously nonsense.

Quote:
400lbs is nothing to someone who squats 800, just like 250lbs is nothing to a 500lb squatter
This is talking in absolutes, and it just isn't true.

Last edited by Fazc; 07-28-2011 at 05:26 AM.
Fazc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 06:46 AM   #18
BendtheBar
Bearded Beast of Duloc
Max Brawn
Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100 Points: 1,554,481, Level: 100
Activity: 49% Activity: 49% Activity: 49%
 
BendtheBar's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 79,940
Training Exp: 20+ years
Training Type: Powerbuilding
Fav Exercise: Deadlift
Fav Supp: Butter
Reputation: 2584002
BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!BendtheBar is one with Crom!
Default

Quote:
It is quite well accepted that as the body progresses our strength may increase but our recovery doesn't expand much if at all.
I completely agree with this.

To add to what Fazc just said, 80% of my squat max feels (most times) extremely heavy to me. 80% of my 300 and 400 pound max didn't feel any where near as heavy or intimidating.

This might make me seem weak minded, but there is a certain fear I have getting under 400+ weight. The eccentrics are always hard, and no matter how gradually I ramp my warmup sets to prime my CNS - and I do ramp them slowly - 400 pounds feels different to me.

When I am under that kind of weight the first thought that crosses my mind in nearly every case is holy crap this is heavy.

I have had at least 50 -75 squat workouts with reps at 405 or more in the last several years, and 400 always givings me that holy crap feeling.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Destroy That Which Destroys You

"Let bravery be thy choice, but not bravado."


BendtheBar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 06:48 AM   #19
LtL
SHFW
Max Brawn
Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100 Points: 36,892, Level: 100
Activity: 17% Activity: 17% Activity: 17%
 
LtL's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 12,019
Training Exp: 5 years
Training Type: Powerlifting
Fav Exercise: Deadlifts
Fav Supp: Endurance BCAA
Reputation: 455740
LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!LtL is one with Crom!
Default

I agree with you Steve. Once you get above a certain weight, it all feels heavy. Mostly because it is

LtL
__________________
Proudly sponsored by Muscle and Brawn and Lifestyle Focus.
Ask me about Ark products.
www.liftingtolive.com
LtL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:03 AM   #20
Off Road
Senior Member
Max Brawn
Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83 Points: 17,091, Level: 83
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Off Road's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,606
Reputation: 786994
Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!Off Road is one with Crom!
Default

I've had the same experience. At 75% of my 1RM, it is easy to get tons of reps. But reps fall sharply as I get above 80%.
Off Road is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
athlete, elite


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DW Gets Raw Elite DieselWeasel Powerlifting & Strength Training 23 04-07-2012 03:54 PM
Elite FTS Bench Set Up Tutorial LtL Powerlifting & Strength Training 2 05-16-2011 03:27 PM
MAB on Elite BendtheBar Powerlifting & Strength Training 1 12-24-2010 08:45 AM
Dymatize Elite Whey B-Fit Nutrition, Diet and Supplements 0 12-13-2010 04:27 PM
Anyone use Elite Lifting Hooks? BendtheBar Powerlifting & Strength Training 2 01-21-2010 04:36 PM

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.