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Old 09-10-2009, 07:22 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rippednmichigan View Post
Shall we call you Doc Brawn?
Sounds like a winner to me.

I know this is a heated discussion, and I don't want to derail this thread. But I will say this...if continuous progress WAS possible as a natural, I would be able to compete in the IFBB right now. My lack of progress over the last 8 years wasn't because I suddenly forgot how to train correctly. The study of training is my life. Granted, I do not claim to know all. But I do know with great certainty the best way for naturals to add muscle.

One just needs to look at the weight of natural Mr. Olympians each year to know that these formulas are correct, and genetic limits exist.

We live in a culture that believes hard work can overcome all. It can't in the muscle building realm. The body's natural testosterone levels can only allow so much muscle. It this WASN'T true, 70 year old naturals like Clarence Bass would be able to compete again Ronnie Coleman.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:58 PM   #12
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ok then. what about natural strength versus natural mass?



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Originally Posted by MuscleandBrawn View Post
Sounds like a winner to me.

I know this is a heated discussion, and I don't want to derail this thread. But I will say this...if continuous progress WAS possible as a natural, I would be able to compete in the IFBB right now. My lack of progress over the last 8 years wasn't because I suddenly forgot how to train correctly. The study of training is my life. Granted, I do not claim to know all. But I do know with great certainty the best way for naturals to add muscle.

One just needs to look at the weight of natural Mr. Olympians each year to know that these formulas are correct, and genetic limits exist.

We live in a culture that believes hard work can overcome all. It can't in the muscle building realm. The body's natural testosterone levels can only allow so much muscle. It this WASN'T true, 70 year old naturals like Clarence Bass would be able to compete again Ronnie Coleman.
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:32 AM   #13
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BTW, its not a heated discussion. We are all learning here....
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:48 AM   #14
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ok then. what about natural strength versus natural mass?
Steroids add muscle density and HGH creates new muscle volume. So because of this, and obviously, a steroid/HGH user will get stronger. I hate to separate HGH from steroids, because I would wager that most elite powerlifters use both.

The gap between steroid using powerlifters and drug-free powerlifters isn't as wide as the gap between steroid using bodybuilders and drug-free bodybuilding. Elite steroid-using bodybuilders carry over 50 more pounds of muscle then the natural Mr. O.

Each year, the natural Mr. Olympia winner weigh's around the low 190's. Each year the steroid Mr. Olympia weighs 250+. Last year's Mr. Olympia, Dexter Jackson, weighed around 240. So 50 pounds is a fair number.

As for powerlifters, let's compare the raw world records for the natural fed (100% Raw) and the open fed (Raw Unity Meet). I've spoken with both of these fed presidents (Paul Bossi and Eric Talmant) numerous times either via phone or email the last month. I know their drug-testing policies, and I know 100% Raw is drug-free. I'm also very confidant that Raw Unity's top guys use steroids.

I will compare the Open Division for the 275 pound weight class, the 220 pound class, and the 165 pound class.

275 Drug-free...1850
275 Steroid...2060

220 Drug free...1695
220 Steroid...1725

165 Drug free...1335
165 Steroid...1532

A couple of notes...100% Raw has been around longer, so the difference between the world records will be comparatively smaller then if RUM had been around just as long.

Second thought, steroid using powerlifters generally use different steroids then bodybuilders. These steroids are geared towards strength and not mass.

Lastly, many of the drug using lifters in this example from Raw Unity most likely didn't take HGH. It's a new meet, and is still trying to attract the elite of the sport.

Steroid using bodybuilders rely on intensity and overall number of contractions to build muscle, therefore strength is not the key factor needed to achieve muscle gain. Steroid using powerlifters need raw strength. It's much easier to get in volume of contractions then it is to gain additional strength. This is another reason why the gap between steroid users and drug-free athletes is so much different between the sports.
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Old 09-11-2009, 08:50 AM   #15
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BTW, its not a heated discussion. We are all learning here....
I didn't mean here

And I'm glad it's not heated here.

If you go to T-Nation or BB.com and mention that natural bodybuilders can't get as big as drug-users, people flame the heck out of you. I was primarily using that as my "heated" example. I could give you some threads that would be 20+ pages long of arguments.

But, the bottom line, no natural who claims to be bigger ever has photos
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:26 AM   #16
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I may experiment with a RAW meet, but that means no gear and not necessarily always drug free. My only drawback is the joints
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:56 AM   #17
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so steve what you are saying is that HGH is the way to go if you are looking for pure size?
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:14 AM   #18
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Steroids increase Hypertrophy (increasing the size of the current muscle cells)
HGH re-enables Hyperplasia which is something that halts in younger adults (growing new muscle cells...which also increases hypertrophy) basically what Steve already mentioned.

I think though if someone could produce an OTC myostatin blocker then natural limits would be raised significantly. I have no idea the negative side of said product.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:24 AM   #19
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The dog in the photo is supermuscular because of naturally occurring mutations that silence both versions of the myostatin gene. Called bully whippets, these dogs are rarely champion racers. However, animals with one mutated and one normal version of the gene are more muscular
than typical animals and are among the breed’s fastest racers. Credit: Stuart Isett, Polaris

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Old 09-11-2009, 10:50 AM   #20
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I may experiment with a RAW meet, but that means no gear and not necessarily always drug free. My only drawback is the joints
100% Raw is drug-tested. Paul Bossi, the fed pres, is a friend of mine. He is diligent about testing.
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