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View Poll Results: Who and what do do you agree with ?
1607, The BodyGuard 4 66.67%
1857, Skizac 0 0%
1607 but not because of The BodyGuard's argument 0 0%
1857 but not because of Skizac's arguement 2 33.33%
WHO CARES!??? 0 0%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-19-2011, 06:39 PM   #1
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Default 242 raw elite total: 1607 or 1857 ?

Interesting debate on T-nation.

TESTOSTERONE NATION | Raw Elite Total? - Page 1

Keep an eye on "The Bodyguard" VS "Skizac".
The bodyguard in favor of 1607 for raw drug tested totals, and Skizac in favor for untested 1857 totals.

Who do you tend to agree with? Vote now

Don't like any of the poll choices, write your ballot in

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Old 02-19-2011, 06:42 PM   #2
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skizac wrote:
The 100% Raw standards are way too low. I agree with Eric Talmant's reasoning. At 242, the 1607 total required by 100% Raw is nowhere near what I would consider elite. The 1857 total that Raw Unity requires is more like it. That would put a person in the top 1% of competitors.

the bodyguard wrote:

So you think 1857 is more like it? Hmmm. Let's do some simple math on that. Assuming a modest 450 BP, that leaves a 700 squat and deadlift. Now, I know these numbers don't quite impress anyone anymore, what with all the 500lb benchers around nowadays (the ones that can't really bench 350 raw but that's another debate) but I'd venture to say that those numbers are a bit high.

Of course, I have some qualifying questions too; are we talking drug tested? The higher table implies "single ply" equipment although I'm not sure what he intended to say as its a bit awkward as stated.

To OP, I don't know if you're going to get a satisfactory answer. I've been wanting to know the same thing for many years now and I cannot give you a number. There are too many variables: what constitutes raw? drug tested? fed? To the extent such a number exists, it will differ among federations.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:43 PM   #3
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TheBodyGuard wrote:
Of course, I have some qualifying questions too; are we talking drug tested? The higher table implies "single ply" equipment although I'm not sure what he intended to say as its a bit awkward as stated.

Ski wrote:
The Raw Unity Meet numbers are raw, including no knee wraps, but untested.

TheBodyGuard wrote:
So you think 1857 is more like it? Hmmm. Let's do some simple math on that. Assuming a modest 450 BP, that leaves a 700 squat and deadlift. Now, I know these numbers don't quite impress anyone anymore, what with all the 500lb benchers around nowadays (the ones that can't really bench 350 raw but that's another debate) but I'd venture to say that those numbers are a bit high.

Ski Wrote:
They're supposed to be high. That's what elite means. The term has been watered down to the point that everybody expects to be able to call themselves elite. A 1607 raw total at 242 is achievable by just about anybody with dedication. That doesn't mean "elite" to me. A performance of 700/457/700 does. Just so we're totally clear, I'm talking about raw lifting: no suits, no shirts, no knee wraps.

The BG wrote
I think your sense of proportion is way way way off. First of all a 700lb pull is a big pull and not many have eclipsed it at 242 whether gearedand untested or not. Next, how many raw legal 700lb squats have you seen at 242? Go to plusa top lifts at that weight and see if you can support your case. I doubt it. And I'd wager all the top 50 lifts are geared and a majority untested. Gear and drugs have so perverted powerlifting that you could actually feign a sneeze at a 1600 raw total. I'm not looking for a gear or drug debate but I stronly disagree with you. There's a legion of 800lb squatters or better that can't manage a 700 raw squat and don't even get me started on the bench press!
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #4
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Ski wrote:
I think your sense of what the human body is capable of is off. I put together a 1745 total at 242 without even training specifically for powerlifting or going through a peaking cycle, and I don't consider myself particularly gifted compared to what I've seen others do. 1607 feels like a joke, while 1857 seems entirely within my reach.

I think the reason you're not seeing many 700 lb. raw squats and deadlifts is because most powerlifters don't compete raw.

the BG wrote:
oookay. Here's a suggestion for you - DO IT RAW and report back. Me thinks you underestimate what you get from your gear. Anyway, your opinion, like mine, is worthless - consult with the top 100 lifts and report back on all those 700lb deadlifts for 242. I pick the deadlift because it's the least likely to be influenced by gear - and even then, it's not adjusted for drug free. I don't think you can make your case by the numbers - cold hard facts. All the "elite" totals thrown around from various feds over time have been corrupted by drugs and gear, over time. And yes, I am perfectly in tune with what the human body can do. But that's not really the discussion. The discussion is what is an elite RAW total. Ever wonder why these guys don't compete RAW? I'll tell you why; 500lb benches become 400lb or less. 750lb squats become 550lb squats. That's why. I've squatted X of 700lbs and I honestly can't say I could have squatted 600 RAW then. I don't think I'm the exception.

TBG also says:
Elite signifies the top 1%. They used to use a mathematical formula to come up with it. What you or I, or skizac "thinks" is irrelevant. Make your case with the #'s. Cull all the RAW #'s and make your case. Hell, cull the PLUSA top 50 for the deadlift and try to make your case. I challenge you. I'm not quite interested in "untested" but thanks anyway. I still say that the lower numbers are closer to ELITE for a tested RAW lifter.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:48 PM   #5
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ski says:
What is wrong with your reading comprehension? I have been talking about nothing but raw lifting this entire thread. ALL OF MY LIFTS ARE DONE RAW.

TBG says:

My reading comprehension is fine. How do you rate your writing skills? Please point out where in your post you qualified your total as RAW? Or was I to assume?

Anyway, I don't know if it's a bit of false modesty on your part, but that total does make you a bit "gifted". Of course, you're silent on the tested part and I don't really care one way or another...we all deserve our privacy. Notwithstanding your opinion and what "you've seen", the MEET RESULTS don't back it up. I say the lower numbers are more accurate for a lifetime drug free RAW lifter and I think meet results support that.

And, like I've pretty much said before (and it happens to be my personal beef with powerlifting in general), given the number of feds, tested/untested, rules, type of gear permitted, etc., there are too many variables to qualify ANY lift except WITHIN THAT FED. THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES and therefore, I don't think the OP will ever get a real answer to the question that I myself was wondering probably 10 years ago! In contrast, our closest "cousin", oly weight lifting - how many variables exist to qualify one athlete from another? NONE. I'm a bit off on a tangent/rant here I understand, but it does pertain to OP.

What I have learned long ago is that powerlifting is a solitary sport where you compete against yourself. Anyway, very nice total. What were the individual lift results for that total?

Ski says:
You're right, I wasn't explicit about lifting raw. Within the context of comparing my lifts to the raw elite classifications, I thought it was clear.

I know I'm strong, but I don't think I'm a freak 242er like Kirk Karwoski or Larry Pacifico. I work very hard for the gains that I make. \

I agree. I support the current movement towards raw lifting and efforts at consolidation like the Raw Unity Meet.

I will say that I think you might be overemphasizing the importance of drug testing. I can't cite statistics for obvious reasons, but based on my experiences and conversations with other lifters and coaches, I doubt very many of the top drug-tested athletes in the world are competing without use of some kind of banned substance. Especially athletes that compete in sports where strength and power are important factors.

Thanks. It was 655/415/675, but I did it in my gym, so take that with an appropriate amount of skepticism. I was training for bodybuilding at the time. However, I'm doing the Raw Unity Meet in January and plan to beat all of those numbers
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:49 PM   #6
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The bodyguard says:

A few responses:

No, you're not a "freak", but if you did those numbers clean, you are. Still, you are comparing yourself to "all time" kind of guys, and I'm not sure "elite" is defined that way. I forget the formula, but it was much more (relatively) forgiving than comparing yourself to any "all time" great - more along the lines of top 1% lifts in that weight class.

With reference to those "tested" lifters you mention, simply put, they are cheating. I really don't have much of a response for that other than it has a lot to do with how I feel about powerlifting and my opinion that it's a solitary sport. If you're taking something banned and you are still considered drug free, where is the line drawn? So the conclusions I've come to after more than 10 years is that I can't control inconsistency in judging, I can't control who's "on" or not, or who gets tested, or if they are clean or who even shows up. I can only strive to best my current total and that's the only thing within my control. The "sport" is in shambles for this reason.

You're not far from me. Where is the Raw Unity meet? Do you have a link? I might get out and compete or support you. I'm in NJ. Good luck with your training.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #7
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ultimatethor wrote:
Wow, I didn't realize I'd be opening up such a hornet's nest when I posted this. Thanks for everyone's input, but I have some follow-up questions:

If Elite is supposed to represent the top 1% of lifters, how does the geared Elite standard compare to the current records i.e. the PLUSA top 50? If that's the case, shouldn't there only be a handful of guys who are Elite, like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc? Seems to me like there's more Elite lifters than just a handful. Thoughts?

Also, some have made the argument even in the geared ranks tht there should be a new standard "Pro" to reflect guys like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc. Does that mean the geared Elite is more attainable?

Stirring the pot...
This is the guy who started a thread on what is the elite 242 classification.

The bodyguard responded:

Well, gear, raw, drugs, ARE the hornets in the nest that is powerlifting and its very difficult to have these discussions without getting "stung" because in powerlifting, for the reasons I've already stated, you have to "qualify" your statements and conclusions to allow for these variables.

When you look at Elite, you are still talking a small percentage of guys compared to the whole of the class. There are thousands of lifters competing and totaling in any given class. Those that hit any standard of "elite" are still a relative handful.


There are "pro" designations - again, depending on the federation. In some feds, "pro" simply means you're untested
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:54 PM   #8
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i feel that neither are exactly correct, a a few of the RUM Elite numbers, in the lighter classes are above the current all time world records (drug tested, and yes i know RUM is untested)

The 100% raw/adau ones are really low, even for drug tested.

I actually like the NASA raw elite numbers, even though I don't like the fed, their raw elite classifications are very good:

132-1175
148-1375
165-1475
181-1525
198-1600
220-1675
242-1725
275-1775
308-1825
SHW-1875
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:57 PM   #9
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1857 at 242 is perfectly reasonable to me.

When there have been lifters putting 300lb sandbags over their heads one-handed, doing 600lb Squats into their 60's, Deadlifting 700lbs one-handed, and generally ****ing shit up all over the place without gear, it seems like people should be aiming a little higher. Maybe even a lot higher.

Edit: I'm of the opinion that classifications such as Elite should be extremely hard to attain. Why lower the overall total? Shouldn't it's being to attain be the whole point?
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaku900 View Post
i feel that neither are exactly correct, a a few of the RUM Elite numbers, in the lighter classes are above the current all time world records.

The 100% raw/adau ones are really low, even for drug tested.

I actually like the NASA raw elite numbers, even though I don't like the fed, their raw elite classifications are very good:

132-1175
148-1375
165-1475
181-1525
198-1600
220-1675
242-1725
275-1775
308-1825
SHW-1875
I should have put a poll for another #. Personally I feel the 1700's is most reasonable.
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