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Old 12-31-2010, 12:16 AM   #11
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BMI aside, the issue has been studied in great detail.

Casey Butt's study on this subject is exhaustive. No one is beating the numbers I posted by more than a pound or two, and if they do they are one of the greatest naturals of all time.

I trust Casey's work more than I trust anyone in this industry.

I have had several natural bodybuilders go to verbal blows with me over this issue, yet none of them has exceeded the calculations.

I don't mean to sound like an arse on this subject, but it is one I have studied to no end. On a personal note, I am 5'10" and my LBM has been 178-179 for 10+ years. I can't get over that hump no matter what. I am smaller boned than normal, so this makes sense. I am exactly where Casey predicted.
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:46 AM   #12
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Here are charts from Casey Butt's study revealing predictions using his data and formula, and the actual numbers of natural greats:




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Old 12-31-2010, 12:48 AM   #13
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I did not read your post before making mine, Steve. I was replying only to the one previous.

I did not intend to start an argument, but was simply stating I do not have much faith in the BMI.
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:23 AM   #14
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The BMI is irrelevant to our point, mate. It's the fat-free mass index that's relevant. That BMI is a poor indicator of healthy bodyweight for a physically active individual is not under debate. We know it's crap.

That a person's fat-free mass may not exceed a certain level is under debate.

However, for most of us, that is much more a goal than a limit. For example, me at 1.77m tall could attain a lean mass of 78kg. At a healthy but not lean 15% bodyfat, I'd be 92kg (smaller with Casey Butt's method accounting for frame size, but let me dream!) I'm 81kg now. Another 11kg, 8-10kg of which is lean mass - I'd be pretty damned solid, with nothing to be ashamed of in my size.

Most of us are so far below the natural limit that it's not a limit but a goal.

I do like and admire the Pole in a lot of ways. If we had to hate every well-known athlete because they're a drug abuser that wouldn't leave us many to admire. But though I do admire him in some ways, "achieving a natural physique" isn't one of them.
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:30 AM   #15
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Its funny, I come home from the gym thinking "I squatted more and deeper than anyone at my gym today" (lots of bicep only and 1/4 squat guys at my gym), then I see him warming up with more weights than I can lift lol.

That guys is a beast, his workout looks hardcore!
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron View Post
The BMI is irrelevant to our point, mate. It's the fat-free mass index that's relevant. That BMI is a poor indicator of healthy bodyweight for a physically active individual is not under debate. We know it's crap.

That a person's fat-free mass may not exceed a certain level is under debate.

However, for most of us, that is much more a goal than a limit. For example, me at 1.77m tall could attain a lean mass of 78kg. At a healthy but not lean 15% bodyfat, I'd be 92kg (smaller with Casey Butt's method accounting for frame size, but let me dream!) I'm 81kg now. Another 11kg, 8-10kg of which is lean mass - I'd be pretty damned solid, with nothing to be ashamed of in my size.

Most of us are so far below the natural limit that it's not a limit but a goal.

I do like and admire the Pole in a lot of ways. If we had to hate every well-known athlete because they're a drug abuser that wouldn't leave us many to admire. But though I do admire him in some ways, "achieving a natural physique" isn't one of them.
I'd like your opinion on Paul De Ocampo, if you are so inclined.
http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/bod...de-ocampo.html
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:55 PM   #17
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I am personally convinced that there are no natural and successfull pro athletes in any sport (possible exception would be bowling). If they are paid to compete and they do well, they are juicing. So, I don't think there has been a natural WSM competitor since the 70s when the contest first started. Of course, Pudz, Savickas, Shaw, Poundstone, Best, and even Kazmaier would scream that I was full of shit, that they're tested, and could not possible be juicing. But, the tests in sports that are sold to the public as preventing unnatural athletes' are engineered to be a few steps behind, the guys who get caught simply haven't updated their roid of choice in time.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron View Post
FFMI of more than 25 doesn't seem to be possible without drugs.

FFMI = lean mass / height x height
Lean mass = FFMI x height x height

Anyway, the guy is 1.86m tall. Given a max FFMI of 25, we get,
Max lean mass = 25 x 1.86 x 1.86 = 86.5kg = 191lbs

His weight is given as 142kg (313lbs). So if he had lean mass 191lbs, then he would be (313-191)/313 = 39% bodyfat. I don't think so.
OK, so for me...

I'm about 203 cm tall so given a max FFMI of 25...
Max lean mas = 25 x 2.03 x 2.03 = 103 kg = 226 pounds
I weigh about 330 so then
(330 - 226)/330 = 31 % bodyfat... But I'm actually around 15% bodyfat.

Just like BMI, your FFMI isn't linear with height, and thus making absolute assumptions about 25 being the max you can obtain naturally is wrong and meaningless, IMHO.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:24 AM   #19
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workout looks like a man maker bro

Quote:
Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Casey Butt studied 300 natural champions from the last 60 years.

Determining Natural Bodybuilding Potential

If you are genetically gifted and big-boned, at 6% bodyfat (listed as competition weight below) you can hope to achieve:



I myself have profiled most major natural bodybuilders in the modern era and I found these numbers to be spot on.

Exceeding these numbers by more than a pound or two would make you one of the greatest naturals ever.

By Casey's study, Mariusz would have about a max natural lean body mass of 193.6 pounds. This is right in line with Kyle's study. Bone size can cause very minor variances.
i have 30 lbs. to lose
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Lane View Post
I am personally convinced that there are no natural and successfull pro athletes in any sport (possible exception would be bowling). If they are paid to compete and they do well, they are juicing. So, I don't think there has been a natural WSM competitor since the 70s when the contest first started.
Wow, guilty until proven innocent. No wait, you're even suggesting more extreme than that, it's guilty without being able to prove innocent since we *know* they're all guilty anyway. LOL, wow.
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