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Old 06-25-2010, 06:23 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron View Post
"Women shouldn't do heavy weights, they'll bulk up." Thus endless hours on the treadmill...
I hear this one a lot. "I want to tone but not bulk up."
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by onetiredkris View Post
I cant imagine a successful bodybuilder who never flys/curls/leg extensions.
When I'm done cutting you'll see one

And we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic.

There can be a time and place for isolation lifts, I use them occasionally for prehab/rehab/deload work. But as mass builders I think they are a waste. There are just too many solid compound lifts I would rather perform.

Not all isolation movements are useless. Curls, calves work, skullcrushers, etc., have value. What I am against is the frilly abuse of isolations for chest and shoulders. Far too many guys overkill their chest, and add in 3 isolation lifts for moar! And for shoulders..well, it's usually overhead press, lateral and lateral.

I think the guys abusing them for chest and shoulders tend to abuse them elsewhere. I guess it is this mindset I am against, moreso then the occasional wise use of isolations. I strongly dislike seeing 90 minute daily training programs stuffed with 5 isolation lifts. I just don't see the point - for naturals, that is.

I would argue that most current, successful bodybuilders wouldn't have needed any isolation lifts.

The bodybuilders prior to the steroid era used very few isolation lifts. There are decades of built lifters prior to the 70's who performed very few if any isolation lifts. Even many of the lifters from the 70's build their physiques on old school 2 and 3 times per week training with few isolations, including Oliva and Arnold. In his later years, Arnold started pumping, and doing more isolations, but he was pretty much built by then. I would argue Arnold built 90% of his base training like Reg Park. Here he is at 18:



For example, the York courses were primarily like this:

Quote:
Course 3. 6 weeks, 3 Workouts per week

1. Squat: 4 sets of 8 reps (Superset, alternate with exercise #2.)
2. Pullover: 4 sets of 10 reps
3. Bent Arm Pullover: 3 sets of 8 reps
4. Bench Press: 4 sets of 8 reps
5. Dips: 3 sets of 10 reps
6. Dumbell Bench Press: 4 sets of 8 reps
7. Barbell Curl: 4 sets of 8 reps
8. Two Hands Dumbell Curl: 4 sets of 10 reps
Arnold built his mass on routines like:

The Real Arnold Schwarzenegger Beginner Programs Muscle and Brawn Bodybuilding and Powerlifting.

Quote:
Workout A

Back Squats 5×5
Chin-Ups or Pull-Ups 5×5
Dips or Bench Press 5×5
Wrist Work (Grip Work) 2×10
Calves 2×15-20

Workout B

Front Squats 5×5
Rows 5×5
Standing Press 5×5
Deadlifts 3×5 (2 warm-up sets and 1 “stabilizer set”)
Wrist Work 2×10
Calves 2×15-20
John Grimek’s primary exercises included presses, dumbbell presses, squats, power cleans, deadlifts, snatches, barbell bent over rowing and curls. He did very little else, and was always focused on adding more weight to the bar, eating enough food, and getting plenty of rest.

Sergio Oliva relied heavily on compound lifts.

Sergio Oliva Training Routine Muscle and Brawn Bodybuilding and Powerlifting.

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Last edited by BendtheBar; 06-25-2010 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:08 PM   #23
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I apologize for leaving such a half ass not well thought out comment. Some isolation exercises have good value and I don't believe you van train 100 percent with compounds. I am simply against wasteful routines with too many isolations. You obviously need them for biceps etc
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:08 PM   #24
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i agree..compound lifts are key! IMO when it comes to isolation movements especially with the chest and shoulders people over do it. For chest they'll do bench press, but then after that go to flat flyes, incline flyes, cable cross over, pretty much over kill on the isolation movement.

In my program, I choose to do either 1 or 2 chest isolation movements after my presses. I figure if i feel like i could do more chest if i choose to do 2 isolation movements then it is obvious that i didnt go hard enough in my workout.
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:42 PM   #25
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"Women shouldn't do heavy weights, they'll bulk up." Thus endless hours on the treadmill...

There's a blog all about crossfit women, and the guy posted a youtube vid of a woman attempting a double bodyweight deadlift. Bulky she ain't.

All was looking good, and then the attached ad popped up. Reality vs marketing.

Just thought it was funny
She has great form and I'm not necessarily talking about the deadlift.

Crossfit makes women insanely hot. Guys need to do SS before doing a lot of CF though methinks (from experience).
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:53 PM   #26
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Crossfit makes women insanely hot. Guys need to do SS before doing a lot of CF though methinks (from experience).
Crossfit: making women hot and men weak since 1995. And injuring both of them.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:10 PM   #27
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I hear this one a lot. "I want to tone but not bulk up."
Yes, annoying. All innervated muscle has tone so really, this means nothing to me. Women that are afraid to lift anything heavier than a 1-lb. pink dumbbell for fear they'll become Tina Lockwood.

Oh yeah, and "muscle weighs more than fat." Dumbass, that's like saying "plastic weighs more than feathers." A pound of plastic weighs the same as a pound of feathers. A pound of muscle weighs the same as a pound of fat. Jesus. I understand what they are trying to say, they're just saying it wrong. And it just irks me. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. /rant
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:33 PM   #28
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Yeah, i definitely didnt say that isolations build more mass than compounds, as a matter of fact i said:
Quote:
(i am in no way saying iso > compound, or even close. im just saying it does have its place)
That york course you put is 50% isolations (pullovers,curls) =P
And we have all seen arnold reping out dumbbell flys.

i dunno, they have their place......



Edit: i actually posted a bunch of off topic crap and didnt see the title 'muscle and strength building myths' lol, i just meant from a body building perspective isolations have their place, just like assistance work has its place for pling
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Old 06-26-2010, 05:18 AM   #29
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just to jump on the iso/compound discussion..

i think that every program need assistance exercices,
but the assistance exercises can be compound or iso, aslong as it brings up you weakness.

bad hamstrings? do SDL
if your back cant take it, then do leg curls.

lagging chest? i would do incline dumbellpress.
but if your shoulders and tri'c are to dominant, maybe do flyes.

in the long run, it just about bringing up your weaknesses.

if your a beginner the assistance should be strenght wize, beacuse your just to little to start worrying about symetri.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:59 AM   #30
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One common myth is that you can only work certain bodyparts together like back and biceps or chest and triceps. As the weight gets heavier I find that some non-conventional splits actually work better for me.
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