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Old 04-11-2010, 12:43 AM   #11
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This is a good write up coop but I think it is important to understand your own body when you bulk. I personally bulk using 4000 plus calories and do not put a lot of fat on when I do it. I agree with your mcdonalds comment, a lot of young weightlifters with crazy high metabolisms get caught up in bodybuilding magazines and eat chicken breasts and broccoli all the time. Then they call themselves a hardgainer. If you are not putting on weight during a bulk you are not trying hard enough.

A note on weightgainers be careful, some are inviting because they are cheap but they are full of sugar and crap. You may be better off grabbing a double cheeseburger than consuming that crap. Plus they are delicious.

And I really like your protein bar recipe, have you ever made these?
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Old 04-11-2010, 01:00 AM   #12
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This is a good write up coop but I think it is important to understand your own body when you bulk. I personally bulk using 4000 plus calories and do not put a lot of fat on when I do it. I agree with your mcdonalds comment, a lot of young weightlifters with crazy high metabolisms get caught up in bodybuilding magazines and eat chicken breasts and broccoli all the time. Then they call themselves a hardgainer. If you are not putting on weight during a bulk you are not trying hard enough.

A note on weightgainers be careful, some are inviting because they are cheap but they are full of sugar and crap. You may be better off grabbing a double cheeseburger than consuming that crap. Plus they are delicious.

And I really like your protein bar recipe, have you ever made these?
Yes bro the protein bars taste great brotha. Thanks for your reply J. im glad you argreed with most of my comments
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:16 AM   #13
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I agree with your mcdonalds comment, a lot of young weightlifters with crazy high metabolisms get caught up in bodybuilding magazines and eat chicken breasts and broccoli all the time. Then they call themselves a hardgainer. If you are not putting on weight during a bulk you are not trying hard enough.
Very true.

I had to eat 4500 calories plus to gain weight in college and didn't put on much fat. There are many underweight individuals who might have to learn to eat at 4500 to 5000 per day to gain weight.

Most hardgainers aren't eating what they think they're eating.

Just remember Coop that there are armies of young lifters who fear adding one pound of fat so they undereat. The point of lifting is to gain muscle and strength. This can be done wisely, with a good bulk, and doesn't have to be chicken breasts and broccoli. Few human beings can live like this all the time. It's simply not enjoyable.

Whole milk, almonds, peanut butter, dark chocolate, butter...there are plenty of healthy foods that have plenty of calories.

Personally, I try to eat primarily healthy with 25% whatever...piece of cheesecake, etc. Unless you're training to be a bodybuilder, eating all chicken breasts, etc., is a horrible way to live. At least for me.

But to each his own.

The old school lifters didn't have many processed foods, so they just ate big...piles of eggs, numerous bananas, milk, beef, butter and cream.

The last thing I want to say is that - as a large lifter - I have yet to see a skinny lifter who warns against too many calories, dirty foods, bulking, whatever, actually provide a picture showing the mysterious 30 pounds of fat they gained during such a process.

My point is this...most of these guys speak from a place of "fat fear". Sure, maybe some of them gained 10 pounds of fat on a bulk. And most likely it took away their abs. And odds are they trained for crap and didn't gain any muscle in the process.

I am not trying to make fun of anyone here. My point is simply that too many moderns opinions about building muscle are carved from an "abs first" mentality. I don't care about abs - I care about muscle and brawn. Get big and strong. Again, not a blank check to eat like a slob, but I think you understand what I'm saying here.

There are too many obsessive behaviors in the realm of lifting. Just learn how to train, and learn how to eat so you can gain muscle and strength. Don't fear gaining a few pounds of fat during the weight gain process. Stay healthy and fit, eat smart, and eat enough. You won't balloon into a fat guy...but you may gain 5 pounds of fat. But with your age and metabolism, I doubt you will gain much more then that.

The reality is that most young lifters need to eat 4000 calories or more. I give you a thumbs up for getting creative and trying to think through bulking and bulking foods.

Clean, dirty, or whatever. Learn your body and eat enough.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:22 AM   #14
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i agree totally with you steve. until i learned that mentality i couldn't gain a pound. i am one of those that no longer fears the fat. some people genetically may have to eat cleaner than others obviously but for hardgainers they should remember that more than likely with some good training afterwards they will shed that fat quickly. and if you're not a bodybuilder this shouldn't be much of a concern for you anyways. reality is which one would you rather be........the little guy you are or a bulked up freak. sometimes you have to go outside the box to fit into it.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:23 AM   #15
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Btw, Dante from DC fails to mention that naturals can't get to 250 (at least with a lot of muscle). So his eating style is pointless unless you're using AAS and trying to get to a relatively lean 250.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:30 AM   #16
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i agree totally with you steve. until i learned that mentality i couldn't gain a pound. i am one of those that no longer fears the fat. some people genetically may have to eat cleaner than others obviously but for hardgainers they should remember that more than likely with some good training afterwards they will shed that fat quickly. and if you're not a bodybuilder this shouldn't be much of a concern for you anyways. reality is which one would you rather be........the little guy you are or a bulked up freak. sometimes you have to go outside the box to fit into it.
Some guys do have to eat cleaner. You've nailed it spot on.

The key, as you've touched on, is learning your body and how it responds. Naturals who train right won't have many gains past year three, so a tight diet starts to make sense at that point.

But...

One of the areas most people don't address with this discussion, because they aren't generally aware of it, are how gains work for naturals, what natural potential looks like, and what the gains curve looks like.

1) Naturals have muscle growth limits.
2) Muscle gains generally diminish by 50% from the previous year.

Both of these statements are not opinions. They are based upon probably the most extensive study on bodybuilding ever partaken.

The first 2 years, if a trainee is lifting correctly, should have more of a wild west approach to eating. Gains are fast and furious (for most) during this time, and the shovel has to be quicker.

But after this period, there is no point in "over-bulking". Gains are small, and bulking should be more controlled. Diets should be "tighter". You simply have very little muscle to gains after 3 to 4 years. A heavy bulk is pointless at this time unless you are training for strength.

I bring this point up because it is a bigger factor in the "how" you should eat then anything else.

There are phases in bodybuilding. Eating should align with these phases.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:32 AM   #17
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Very true.

Most hardgainers aren't eating what they think they're eating.

Just remember Coop that there are armies of young lifters who fear adding one pound of fat so they undereat.

My point is this...most of these guys speak from a place of "fat fear". Sure, maybe some of them gained 10 pounds of fat on a bulk. And most likely it took away their abs. And odds are they trained for crap and didn't gain any muscle in the process.

Clean, dirty, or whatever. Learn your body and eat enough.
Good advice, as always, BTB.

When I first read the thread, I pictured a guy drinking one of those BAKO shakes and eating some big macs, then crying about how much fat he put on.

Then, I suppose, there is the guy who nibbles at his big mac and sips his BAKO shake and only takes in 3000 cals for the day when he needs a grand more to put on size.

No matter who it is, many interested in weight training want to be big and jacked and fears the fat. Yet, yet many of these very people think they can "serve two masters," get big and get lean, at once. It's one or the other, but there are things to keep in order to make sure that "bulking" doesn't mean "fattening." That's why I brought up Dante's advice, which is cardio to spur appetite and keep metabolism high, carb cutoffs, and put the food in the right places, and one can gain a lot of muscle without worrying about too much fat.
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:31 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BendtheBar View Post
Some guys do have to eat cleaner. You've nailed it spot on.

The key, as you've touched on, is learning your body and how it responds. Naturals who train right won't have many gains past year three, so a tight diet starts to make sense at that point.

But...

One of the areas most people don't address with this discussion, because they aren't generally aware of it, are how gains work for naturals, what natural potential looks like, and what the gains curve looks like.

1) Naturals have muscle growth limits.
2) Muscle gains generally diminish by 50% from the previous year.

Both of these statements are not opinions. They are based upon probably the most extensive study on bodybuilding ever partaken.

The first 2 years, if a trainee is lifting correctly, should have more of a wild west approach to eating. Gains are fast and furious (for most) during this time, and the shovel has to be quicker.

But after this period, there is no point in "over-bulking". Gains are small, and bulking should be more controlled. Diets should be "tighter". You simply have very little muscle to gains after 3 to 4 years. A heavy bulk is pointless at this time unless you are training for strength.

I bring this point up because it is a bigger factor in the "how" you should eat then anything else.

There are phases in bodybuilding. Eating should align with these phases.
very well said. and everyone has to find it within themselves to eat responsibly and often also. some people have a hard enough time with just prep time and pricing with a cleaner diet too. where sometimes the dirty bulk can be a easier and more cost effective route.

i like how you pointed out that after years 3-4 for a natural it will be very hard to make gains. and this would be time for a diet change consideration. for me(and i'm just sayin me) i'm gonna go the other route. i'm am gonna continue to dirty bulk to gain strength not only to compete in PL but because i consider for myself strength and size to go hand in hand. i don't feel that if i'm not considerably tryin to increase strength i will not increase in size either. i know my gains are gonna go in the tank in these next few years but mentally i will have to grow stronger and force the gains upon myself instead of letting them come to me.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:03 AM   #19
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i'm gonna go the other route. i'm am gonna continue to dirty bulk to gain strength not only to compete in PL but because i consider for myself strength and size to go hand in hand.
I think you have 10 pounds of muscle in you, so I think you could easily bulk 500 calories over maintenance (clean or dirty - don't want to debate that) and get some great benefits.
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Old 04-11-2010, 01:03 PM   #20
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great replies guys
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